Discussion:
Core content policy
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John Erling Blad
2017-08-02 22:19:11 UTC
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I wonder if deviation away from a central core policy should be banned.
That view is probably not very popular.

Jeblad
its nice idea most just usurp the english policies to start with anyway
when they need it so having a base line on meta would be good though
probably it would best to have it set up automatically in the incubator
stage so that they get moved across when the projects takes the big leap
forward and the community that develops the project can develop these
policies as they grow. It also means that as part of the jump these pages
will need to have been translated as well.
note I'm currently involved with a wikipedia in the the incubator
Hi,
Some works and study was done for Indic Wikimedia projects (there are 24
communities) after a detailed consultation and needs-assessment, please
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Indic_Wikipedia_
Policies_and_Guidelines_Handbook.pdf
a) Localizing policies (translating is not the only way, but localizing
keeping a project in mind)
b) Enforce them
c) For smaller communities having a group of editors working on these
Thanks
Tito Dutta
Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to
remind
me over email or phone call.
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core content
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a lot of the
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial policies. It
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them updated.
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not be
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they should simply
be
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central policies should
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_policy
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some sound
baseline
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine those?
Perhaps
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original research"
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should be about
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some projects
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from creators point of
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those baseline
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central user
pages,
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the projects would
have
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia, Wikibooks,
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
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Jean-Philippe Béland
2017-08-02 22:24:20 UTC
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I oppose to that. Like that communities with bigger number, i.e. English,
will impose their rules to other communities. It's a basic fundamental
principle of Wikimedia projects since the beginning that every community is
independant,

JP
Post by John Erling Blad
I wonder if deviation away from a central core policy should be banned.
That view is probably not very popular.
Jeblad
its nice idea most just usurp the english policies to start with anyway
when they need it so having a base line on meta would be good though
probably it would best to have it set up automatically in the incubator
stage so that they get moved across when the projects takes the big leap
forward and the community that develops the project can develop these
policies as they grow. It also means that as part of the jump these
pages
will need to have been translated as well.
note I'm currently involved with a wikipedia in the the incubator
Hi,
Some works and study was done for Indic Wikimedia projects (there are
24
communities) after a detailed consultation and needs-assessment, please
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Indic_Wikipedia_
Policies_and_Guidelines_Handbook.pdf
a) Localizing policies (translating is not the only way, but localizing
keeping a project in mind)
b) Enforce them
c) For smaller communities having a group of editors working on these
Thanks
Tito Dutta
Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to
remind
me over email or phone call.
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core content
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a lot of the
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial policies.
It
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them updated.
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not be
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they should
simply
be
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central policies
should
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_policy
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some sound
baseline
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine those?
Perhaps
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original
research"
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should be about
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some projects
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from creators point
of
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those baseline
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central user
pages,
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the projects would
have
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia, Wikibooks,
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
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WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Todd Allen
2017-08-02 22:31:30 UTC
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I'd definitely agree there. There are a few non-negotiable points (NPOV,
copyright and licensing, nonfree content, etc.), but outside those,
individual projects generally have latitude to run things as their
community needs. And a project with thirty users and a thousand articles
will not be well served by some of the rules that make sense for projects
with thousands of active editors and millions of articles.

That being said, having some baseline stuff as a point of reference isn't a
bad idea, but individual projects should be free to modify or reject any
parts that don't make sense for them.

Todd
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
I oppose to that. Like that communities with bigger number, i.e. English,
will impose their rules to other communities. It's a basic fundamental
principle of Wikimedia projects since the beginning that every community is
independant,
JP
Post by John Erling Blad
I wonder if deviation away from a central core policy should be banned.
That view is probably not very popular.
Jeblad
its nice idea most just usurp the english policies to start with anyway
when they need it so having a base line on meta would be good though
probably it would best to have it set up automatically in the incubator
stage so that they get moved across when the projects takes the big
leap
Post by John Erling Blad
forward and the community that develops the project can develop these
policies as they grow. It also means that as part of the jump these
pages
will need to have been translated as well.
note I'm currently involved with a wikipedia in the the incubator
Hi,
Some works and study was done for Indic Wikimedia projects (there are
24
communities) after a detailed consultation and needs-assessment,
please
Post by John Erling Blad
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Indic_Wikipedia_
Policies_and_Guidelines_Handbook.pdf
a) Localizing policies (translating is not the only way, but
localizing
Post by John Erling Blad
keeping a project in mind)
b) Enforce them
c) For smaller communities having a group of editors working on these
Thanks
Tito Dutta
Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to
remind
me over email or phone call.
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core content
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a lot of
the
Post by John Erling Blad
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial
policies.
Post by John Erling Blad
It
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them updated.
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not be
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they should
simply
be
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central policies
should
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_policy
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some sound
baseline
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine those?
Perhaps
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original
research"
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should be
about
Post by John Erling Blad
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from creators
point
Post by John Erling Blad
of
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those baseline
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central user
pages,
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the projects
would
Post by John Erling Blad
have
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia, Wikibooks,
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
unsubscribe>
Post by John Erling Blad
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Post by John Erling Blad
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Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Keegan Peterzell
2017-08-02 22:53:50 UTC
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Post by Todd Allen
I'd definitely agree there. There are a few non-negotiable points (NPOV,
copyright and licensing, nonfree content, etc.), but outside those,
individual projects generally have latitude to run things as their
community needs.
​The English Wikivoyage has a "Be fair" policy, which is explicitly
different from NPOV [0].​ Copyright also varies from wiki to wiki, as fair
use for non-free content on the English Wikipedia exemplifies [1].

Things are not so simple.
​​
​0. https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Be_fair#Neutral_point_of_view​
​1. ​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content
--
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
Sam Wilson
2017-08-03 06:42:47 UTC
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Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
I'd definitely agree there. There are a few non-negotiable points (NPOV,
copyright and licensing, nonfree content, etc.), but outside those,
individual projects generally have latitude to run things as their
community needs.
​The English Wikivoyage has a "Be fair" policy, which is explicitly
different from NPOV [0].​ Copyright also varies from wiki to wiki, as fair
use for non-free content on the English Wikipedia exemplifies [1].
And English Wikiversity (and maybe other Wikiversities?) allows original
research (within certain guidelines).

—Sam
Rogol Domedonfors
2017-08-03 06:44:47 UTC
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Is it wise for the Foundation to be seen to controlling content in this
way? Would that not jeopardise their legal immunity?

"Rogol"
Post by Todd Allen
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
I'd definitely agree there. There are a few non-negotiable points
(NPOV,
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
copyright and licensing, nonfree content, etc.), but outside those,
individual projects generally have latitude to run things as their
community needs.
​The English Wikivoyage has a "Be fair" policy, which is explicitly
different from NPOV [0].​ Copyright also varies from wiki to wiki, as fair
use for non-free content on the English Wikipedia exemplifies [1].
And English Wikiversity (and maybe other Wikiversities?) allows original
research (within certain guidelines).
—Sam
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John Erling Blad
2017-08-03 07:38:45 UTC
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Without common core policies they can not claim that the projects stick
within their boundaries. Is a project without a clear policy on "no
original research", "verifiability" and "neutral point of view" Wikipedia?
Is it enough to just say it is "Wikipedia" to be "Wikipedia"? I believe
there should be clearer boundaries on what it means to be "Wikipedia", or
"Wikiversity" or "Wiktionary", or some other "Wiki*".
Post by Rogol Domedonfors
Is it wise for the Foundation to be seen to controlling content in this
way? Would that not jeopardise their legal immunity?
"Rogol"
Post by Todd Allen
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
I'd definitely agree there. There are a few non-negotiable points
(NPOV,
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
copyright and licensing, nonfree content, etc.), but outside those,
individual projects generally have latitude to run things as their
community needs.
​The English Wikivoyage has a "Be fair" policy, which is explicitly
different from NPOV [0].​ Copyright also varies from wiki to wiki, as fair
use for non-free content on the English Wikipedia exemplifies [1].
And English Wikiversity (and maybe other Wikiversities?) allows original
research (within certain guidelines).
—Sam
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John Erling Blad
2017-08-03 07:33:39 UTC
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I used Wikipedia as an example, I would not expect core content policy from
Wikipedia to be a good fit for Wikivoyage. Still Wikivoyage could have
common ploicies on Meta the same way Wikipedia would do.
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
I'd definitely agree there. There are a few non-negotiable points (NPOV,
copyright and licensing, nonfree content, etc.), but outside those,
individual projects generally have latitude to run things as their
community needs.
​The English Wikivoyage has a "Be fair" policy, which is explicitly
different from NPOV [0].​ Copyright also varies from wiki to wiki, as fair
use for non-free content on the English Wikipedia exemplifies [1].
Things are not so simple.
​​
​0. https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Be_fair#
Neutral_point_of_view​
​1. ​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content
--
~Keegan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
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Gnangarra
2017-08-03 07:39:04 UTC
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I think meta is the wrong place, the coreor base line policies should be in
the incubator not meta and created as guide at the start of a project then
let the project develop their uniqueness, individuality from there. If it
gets put on meta it will become a you must do this and only this to the
wikilawyers removing all community input into the process. Also for many
people they dont follow meta so what will also happen is that these will
get changed and the new policy will become via a forced cascade to the
communities. I for one could never support any process being created as a
means to take away from the community its own solutions
Post by John Erling Blad
I used Wikipedia as an example, I would not expect core content policy from
Wikipedia to be a good fit for Wikivoyage. Still Wikivoyage could have
common ploicies on Meta the same way Wikipedia would do.
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
I'd definitely agree there. There are a few non-negotiable points
(NPOV,
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
copyright and licensing, nonfree content, etc.), but outside those,
individual projects generally have latitude to run things as their
community needs.
​The English Wikivoyage has a "Be fair" policy, which is explicitly
different from NPOV [0].​ Copyright also varies from wiki to wiki, as
fair
Post by Keegan Peterzell
use for non-free content on the English Wikipedia exemplifies [1].
Things are not so simple.
​​
​0. https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Be_fair#
Neutral_point_of_view​
​1. ​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content
--
~Keegan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email
address
Post by Keegan Peterzell
is in a personal capacity.
_______________________________________________
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John Erling Blad
2017-08-03 11:05:38 UTC
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Common core policies should be on Meta, not Incubator.
Post by Gnangarra
I think meta is the wrong place, the coreor base line policies should be in
the incubator not meta and created as guide at the start of a project then
let the project develop their uniqueness, individuality from there. If it
gets put on meta it will become a you must do this and only this to the
wikilawyers removing all community input into the process. Also for many
people they dont follow meta so what will also happen is that these will
get changed and the new policy will become via a forced cascade to the
communities. I for one could never support any process being created as a
means to take away from the community its own solutions
Post by John Erling Blad
I used Wikipedia as an example, I would not expect core content policy
from
Post by John Erling Blad
Wikipedia to be a good fit for Wikivoyage. Still Wikivoyage could have
common ploicies on Meta the same way Wikipedia would do.
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
I'd definitely agree there. There are a few non-negotiable points
(NPOV,
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
copyright and licensing, nonfree content, etc.), but outside those,
individual projects generally have latitude to run things as their
community needs.
​The English Wikivoyage has a "Be fair" policy, which is explicitly
different from NPOV [0].​ Copyright also varies from wiki to wiki, as
fair
Post by Keegan Peterzell
use for non-free content on the English Wikipedia exemplifies [1].
Things are not so simple.
​​
​0. https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Be_fair#
Neutral_point_of_view​
​1. ​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content
--
~Keegan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email
address
Post by Keegan Peterzell
is in a personal capacity.
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Peter Southwood
2017-08-03 13:32:38 UTC
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Only when they are common by necessity, not when they are common by coincidence.
Cheers,
Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-***@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of John Erling Blad
Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 1:06 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Core content policy

Common core policies should be on Meta, not Incubator.
Post by Gnangarra
I think meta is the wrong place, the coreor base line policies should
be in the incubator not meta and created as guide at the start of a
project then let the project develop their uniqueness, individuality
from there. If it gets put on meta it will become a you must do this
and only this to the wikilawyers removing all community input into the
process. Also for many people they dont follow meta so what will also
happen is that these will get changed and the new policy will become
via a forced cascade to the communities. I for one could never
support any process being created as a means to take away from the
community its own solutions
Post by John Erling Blad
I used Wikipedia as an example, I would not expect core content policy
from
Post by John Erling Blad
Wikipedia to be a good fit for Wikivoyage. Still Wikivoyage could
have common ploicies on Meta the same way Wikipedia would do.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Keegan Peterzell
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
I'd definitely agree there. There are a few non-negotiable points
(NPOV,
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
copyright and licensing, nonfree content, etc.), but outside
those, individual projects generally have latitude to run things
as their community needs.
​The English Wikivoyage has a "Be fair" policy, which is
explicitly different from NPOV [0].​ Copyright also varies from
wiki to wiki, as
fair
Post by Keegan Peterzell
use for non-free content on the English Wikipedia exemplifies [1].
Things are not so simple.
​​
​0. https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Be_fair#
Neutral_point_of_view​
​1. ​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content
--
~Keegan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email
address
Post by Keegan Peterzell
is in a personal capacity.
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
e>
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GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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John Erling Blad
2017-08-03 18:44:34 UTC
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I believe policies on subprojects of Wikipedia are common by necessity,
while the policies of Wikipedia and Wiktionary are common by coincidence.

On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 3:32 PM, Peter Southwood <
Post by Peter Southwood
Only when they are common by necessity, not when they are common by coincidence.
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of John Erling Blad
Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 1:06 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Core content policy
Common core policies should be on Meta, not Incubator.
Post by Gnangarra
I think meta is the wrong place, the coreor base line policies should
be in the incubator not meta and created as guide at the start of a
project then let the project develop their uniqueness, individuality
from there. If it gets put on meta it will become a you must do this
and only this to the wikilawyers removing all community input into the
process. Also for many people they dont follow meta so what will also
happen is that these will get changed and the new policy will become
via a forced cascade to the communities. I for one could never
support any process being created as a means to take away from the
community its own solutions
Post by John Erling Blad
I used Wikipedia as an example, I would not expect core content policy
from
Post by John Erling Blad
Wikipedia to be a good fit for Wikivoyage. Still Wikivoyage could
have common ploicies on Meta the same way Wikipedia would do.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Keegan Peterzell
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
I'd definitely agree there. There are a few non-negotiable points
(NPOV,
Post by Keegan Peterzell
Post by Todd Allen
copyright and licensing, nonfree content, etc.), but outside
those, individual projects generally have latitude to run things
as their community needs.
​The English Wikivoyage has a "Be fair" policy, which is
explicitly different from NPOV [0].​ Copyright also varies from
wiki to wiki, as
fair
Post by Keegan Peterzell
use for non-free content on the English Wikipedia exemplifies [1].
Things are not so simple.
​​
​0. https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Be_fair#
Neutral_point_of_view​
​1. ​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content
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Post by Keegan Peterzell
is in a personal capacity.
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Peter Southwood
2017-08-03 20:11:51 UTC
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Citation needed,
Cheers,
P

-----Original Message-----
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-***@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of John Erling Blad
Sent: Thursday, 03 August 2017 8:45 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Core content policy

I believe policies on subprojects of Wikipedia are common by necessity, while the policies of Wikipedia and Wiktionary are common by coincidence.
Post by Peter Southwood
Only when they are common by necessity, not when they are common by coincidence.
Cheers,
Peter
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of John Erling Blad
Sent: Thursday, August 3, 2017 1:06 PM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Core content policy
Common core policies should be on Meta, not Incubator.
Post by Gnangarra
I think meta is the wrong place, the coreor base line policies
should be in the incubator not meta and created as guide at the
start of a project then let the project develop their uniqueness,
individuality from there. If it gets put on meta it will become a
you must do this and only this to the wikilawyers removing all
community input into the process. Also for many people they dont
follow meta so what will also happen is that these will get changed
and the new policy will become via a forced cascade to the
communities. I for one could never support any process being
created as a means to take away from the community its own solutions
Post by John Erling Blad
I used Wikipedia as an example, I would not expect core content policy
from
Post by John Erling Blad
Wikipedia to be a good fit for Wikivoyage. Still Wikivoyage could
have common ploicies on Meta the same way Wikipedia would do.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Keegan Peterzell
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 5:31 PM, Todd Allen
Post by Todd Allen
I'd definitely agree there. There are a few non-negotiable points
(NPOV,
Post by Todd Allen
copyright and licensing, nonfree content, etc.), but outside
those, individual projects generally have latitude to run
things as their community needs.
​The English Wikivoyage has a "Be fair" policy, which is
explicitly different from NPOV [0].​ Copyright also varies from
wiki to wiki, as
fair
use for non-free content on the English Wikipedia exemplifies [1].
Things are not so simple.
​​
​0. https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Be_fair#
Neutral_point_of_view​
​1. ​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content
--
~Keegan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email
address
is in a personal capacity.
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
ib
e>
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John Erling Blad
2017-08-03 07:31:26 UTC
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What happens now is that policies from enwiki is adopted "as is", but a lot
of the rules enwiki does not make sense at all.
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
I oppose to that. Like that communities with bigger number, i.e. English,
will impose their rules to other communities. It's a basic fundamental
principle of Wikimedia projects since the beginning that every community is
independant,
JP
Post by John Erling Blad
I wonder if deviation away from a central core policy should be banned.
That view is probably not very popular.
Jeblad
its nice idea most just usurp the english policies to start with anyway
when they need it so having a base line on meta would be good though
probably it would best to have it set up automatically in the incubator
stage so that they get moved across when the projects takes the big
leap
Post by John Erling Blad
forward and the community that develops the project can develop these
policies as they grow. It also means that as part of the jump these
pages
will need to have been translated as well.
note I'm currently involved with a wikipedia in the the incubator
Hi,
Some works and study was done for Indic Wikimedia projects (there are
24
communities) after a detailed consultation and needs-assessment,
please
Post by John Erling Blad
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Indic_Wikipedia_
Policies_and_Guidelines_Handbook.pdf
a) Localizing policies (translating is not the only way, but
localizing
Post by John Erling Blad
keeping a project in mind)
b) Enforce them
c) For smaller communities having a group of editors working on these
Thanks
Tito Dutta
Note: If I don't reply to your email in 2 days, please feel free to
remind
me over email or phone call.
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core content
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a lot of
the
Post by John Erling Blad
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial
policies.
Post by John Erling Blad
It
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them updated.
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not be
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they should
simply
be
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central policies
should
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_policy
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some sound
baseline
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine those?
Perhaps
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original
research"
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should be
about
Post by John Erling Blad
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from creators
point
Post by John Erling Blad
of
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those baseline
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central user
pages,
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the projects
would
Post by John Erling Blad
have
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia, Wikibooks,
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
unsubscribe>
Post by John Erling Blad
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Post by John Erling Blad
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Keegan Peterzell
2017-08-02 23:00:14 UTC
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Raw Message
On Wed, Aug 2, 2017 at 9:05 AM, John Erling Blad <***@gmail.com> wrote:
​<snip>​
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some sound baseline
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine those? Perhaps
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
​<snip>

Precedent has​

​that the Board of Trustees can issue resolutions urging communities to
adopt certain policies, such as the resolution on Biographies of Living
People in 2009 [0].

0.
https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Biographies_of_living_people
--
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan

This is my personal email address. Everything sent from this email address
is in a personal capacity.
Strainu
2017-08-03 09:17:41 UTC
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Raw Message
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board resolution, and
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the projects
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with little
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff from en.wp.
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on all the
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not have, with
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement, let alone
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule pushing without
local context.

Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different, just as long
as some kind of discussion happens within the community about it. Even
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community did not
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve differently from
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying to change
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult for small
communities.

Strainu
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core content policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a lot of the
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial policies. It
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them updated.
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not be something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they should simply be
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central policies should be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_policy
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some sound baseline
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine those? Perhaps
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original research"
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should be about
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some projects
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from creators point of
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those baseline policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central user pages,
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the projects would have
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia, Wikibooks,
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
John Erling Blad
2017-08-03 11:07:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Having centralized core policies would lessen the maintenance and process,
not increase them.
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board resolution, and
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the projects
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with little
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff from en.wp.
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on all the
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not have, with
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement, let alone
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule pushing without
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different, just as long
as some kind of discussion happens within the community about it. Even
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community did not
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve differently from
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying to change
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult for small
communities.
Strainu
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core content
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a lot of the
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial policies. It
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them updated.
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not be
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they should simply be
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central policies should
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_policy
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some sound baseline
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine those? Perhaps
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original research"
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should be about
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some projects
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from creators point of
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those baseline
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central user pages,
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the projects would have
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia, Wikibooks,
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
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wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Gnangarra
2017-08-03 12:59:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the ability to
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the community that
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity for banned and
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.

By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator that are
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give them the best guide
to establishing themselves well before that project goes live, ince a
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its community.

We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the projects, but
meta is not a place that the content creating community spends a lot of
time.
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the maintenance and process,
not increase them.
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board resolution, and
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the projects
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with little
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff from en.wp.
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on all the
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not have, with
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement, let alone
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule pushing without
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different, just as long
as some kind of discussion happens within the community about it. Even
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community did not
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve differently from
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying to change
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult for small
communities.
Strainu
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core content
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a lot of the
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial policies. It
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them updated.
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not be
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they should simply
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central policies should
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_policy
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some sound
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine those?
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original research"
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should be about
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some projects
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from creators point of
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those baseline
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central user
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the projects would
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia, Wikibooks,
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
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wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
John Erling Blad
2017-08-03 18:42:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Five pillars are moot.
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the ability to
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the community that
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity for banned and
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator that are
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give them the best guide
to establishing themselves well before that project goes live, ince a
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its community.
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the projects, but
meta is not a place that the content creating community spends a lot of
time.
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the maintenance and
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board resolution, and
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the projects
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with little
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff from en.wp.
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on all the
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not have, with
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement, let alone
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule pushing without
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different, just as long
as some kind of discussion happens within the community about it. Even
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community did not
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve differently from
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying to change
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult for small
communities.
Strainu
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core content
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a lot of the
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial policies.
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them updated.
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not be
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they should
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central policies
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_policy
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some sound
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine those?
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should be about
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some projects
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from creators point
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those baseline
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central user
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the projects would
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia, Wikibooks,
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
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Ziko van Dijk
2017-08-04 02:18:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be pf much
importance
Ziko
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the ability to
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the community that
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity for banned
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator that are
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give them the best
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes live, ince a
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its community.
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the projects, but
meta is not a place that the content creating community spends a lot of
time.
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the maintenance and
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board resolution, and
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the projects
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with little
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff from en.wp.
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on all the
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not have, with
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement, let alone
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule pushing
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different, just as long
as some kind of discussion happens within the community about it.
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community did not
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve differently
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying to change
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult for small
communities.
Strainu
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core content
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a lot of
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them updated.
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not be
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they should
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central policies
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_policy
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some sound
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine those?
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should be
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from creators
point
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those baseline
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central user
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the projects
would
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia, Wikibooks,
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
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GN.
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WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Gnangarra
2017-08-07 13:48:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being global
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract

This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture and the
preferred standards of presenting information based on article
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research analysis of the
number of images, references, internal links, external links, words, and
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured articles on
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of approaches
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We demonstrate that
high-quality standards in information presentation are not globally shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence determines what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for encyclopedic
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for encyclopedic
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but local and very
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be pf much
importance
Ziko
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the ability to
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the community that
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity for banned
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator that are
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give them the best
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes live, ince a
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its community.
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the projects, but
meta is not a place that the content creating community spends a lot of
time.
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the maintenance and
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board resolution,
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the projects
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with little
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff from
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on all the
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not have, with
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement, let
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule pushing
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different, just as
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the community about it.
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community did not
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve differently
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying to change
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult for small
communities.
Strainu
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core content
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a lot of
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them updated.
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not be
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they should
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central policies
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_
policy
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some sound
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine those?
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should be
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from creators
point
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those baseline
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central
user
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the projects
would
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia,
Wikibooks,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
unsubscribe>
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
unsubscribe>
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
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Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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--
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President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
John Erling Blad
2017-08-08 00:14:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on _content_, but
there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that are highly
troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
Armenian genocide for example.
Post by Gnangarra
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being global
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture and the
preferred standards of presenting information based on article
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research analysis of
the
number of images, references, internal links, external links, words, and
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured articles on
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of approaches
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We demonstrate that
high-quality standards in information presentation are not globally
shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence determines
what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for encyclopedic
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for encyclopedic
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but local and very
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be pf much
importance
Ziko
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the ability to
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the community
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity for
banned
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator that are
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give them the best
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes live, ince a
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its community.
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the projects,
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
meta is not a place that the content creating community spends a lot
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
time.
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the maintenance and
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board resolution,
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with little
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff from
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on all
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not have, with
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement, let
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule pushing
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different, just as
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the community about it.
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community did
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve differently
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying to
change
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult for
small
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
communities.
Strainu
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core
content
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a lot
of
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them
updated.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not
be
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they should
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central
policies
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_
policy
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some
sound
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine
those?
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should be
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from creators
point
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those
baseline
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central
user
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the projects
would
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia,
Wikibooks,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
unsubscribe>
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
unsubscribe>
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
unsubscribe>
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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Post by John Erling Blad
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
_______________________________________________
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Gnangarra
2017-08-08 00:20:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's culture is
more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the policies.
Post by John Erling Blad
Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on _content_, but
there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that are highly
troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
Armenian genocide for example.
Post by Gnangarra
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being global
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture and the
preferred standards of presenting information based on article
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research analysis of
the
number of images, references, internal links, external links, words,
and
Post by Gnangarra
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured articles
on
Post by Gnangarra
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of
approaches
Post by Gnangarra
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We demonstrate that
high-quality standards in information presentation are not globally
shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence determines
what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for encyclopedic
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for encyclopedic
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but local and
very
Post by Gnangarra
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be pf much
importance
Ziko
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the ability
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the community
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity for
banned
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator that are
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give them the
best
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes live,
ince a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its community.
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the projects,
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
meta is not a place that the content creating community spends a
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
time.
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the maintenance and
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board
resolution,
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with little
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff from
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on all
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not have,
with
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement, let
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule pushing
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different, just as
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the community about
it.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community did
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve
differently
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying to
change
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult for
small
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
communities.
Strainu
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core
content
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them
updated.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should not
be
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central
policies
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_no_original_research_
policy
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some
sound
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine
those?
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no original
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should
be
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at some
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from
creators
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
point
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those
baseline
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like central
user
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
would
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia,
Wikibooks,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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unsubscribe>
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
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wiki/Wikimedia-l
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
_______________________________________________
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Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
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WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
_______________________________________________
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Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
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John Erling Blad
2017-08-08 09:20:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content policies.
Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of view.
The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects rewrite
world history to focus on their own local view.
Post by Gnangarra
its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's culture is
more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the policies.
Post by John Erling Blad
Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on _content_, but
there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that are
highly
Post by John Erling Blad
troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
Armenian genocide for example.
Post by Gnangarra
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being global
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture and
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
preferred standards of presenting information based on article
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research analysis
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
number of images, references, internal links, external links, words,
and
Post by Gnangarra
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured
articles
Post by John Erling Blad
on
Post by Gnangarra
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of
approaches
Post by Gnangarra
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We demonstrate that
high-quality standards in information presentation are not globally
shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence determines
what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for encyclopedic
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for encyclopedic
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but local and
very
Post by Gnangarra
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be pf
much
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
importance
Ziko
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the
ability
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity for
banned
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator that are
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give them the
best
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes live,
ince a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its community.
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the
projects,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
meta is not a place that the content creating community spends a
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
time.
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the maintenance
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board
resolution,
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with little
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff from
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on
all
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not have,
with
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement,
let
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule
pushing
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different, just
as
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the community about
it.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community
did
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve
differently
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying to
change
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult for
small
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
communities.
Strainu
2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core
content
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them
updated.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
be
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central
policies
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/The_no_original_research_
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
policy
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some
sound
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine
those?
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no
original
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should
be
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at
some
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from
creators
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
point
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those
baseline
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like
central
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
user
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
would
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia,
Wikibooks,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
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Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
_______________________________________________
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Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
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Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
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Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
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Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Strainu
2017-08-08 10:07:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by John Erling Blad
Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
something different from Wikipedia.
Each version of Wikipedia is a different encyclopedia. There are
vastly different inclusion policies and general policies between
the different encyclopedias out there, what links them is that they
provide information from all areas of knowledge.
Post by John Erling Blad
This is about core content policies.
Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of view.
The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects rewrite
world history to focus on their own local view.
Having a policy about it does not solve the issue. Having a policy one
can't really change will make it even worse.{{citation needed}} :)
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's culture is
more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the policies.
Post by John Erling Blad
Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on _content_, but
there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that are
highly
Post by John Erling Blad
troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
Armenian genocide for example.
Post by Gnangarra
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being global
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture and
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
preferred standards of presenting information based on article
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research analysis
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
number of images, references, internal links, external links, words,
and
Post by Gnangarra
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured
articles
Post by John Erling Blad
on
Post by Gnangarra
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of
approaches
Post by Gnangarra
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We demonstrate that
high-quality standards in information presentation are not globally
shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence determines
what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for encyclopedic
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for encyclopedic
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but local and
very
Post by Gnangarra
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be pf
much
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
importance
Ziko
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the
ability
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity for
banned
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator that are
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give them the
best
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes live,
ince a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its community.
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the
projects,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
meta is not a place that the content creating community spends a
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
time.
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the maintenance
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board
resolution,
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with little
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff from
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on
all
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not have,
with
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement,
let
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule
pushing
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different, just
as
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the community about
it.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community
did
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve
differently
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying to
change
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult for
small
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
communities.
Strainu
2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core
content
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because a
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only partial
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them
updated.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
be
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central
policies
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/The_no_original_research_
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
policy
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make some
sound
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to refine
those?
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no
original
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It should
be
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at
some
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from
creators
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
point
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those
baseline
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like
central
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
user
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
would
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia,
Wikibooks,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
unsubscribe>
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Wikimedia-l
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
unsubscribe>
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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Post by John Erling Blad
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Post by Gnangarra
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wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/
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Post by Gnangarra
--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Wikimedia-l
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
_______________________________________________
Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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John Erling Blad
2017-08-11 11:48:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
No, the projects are not that different. Actually I believe the claim that
they are so very different is counterproductive. Now we can't make common
solutions because a few people on *some* project blocks the roll-out. For
example, we could make solutions for quality improvement, but some project
claim they have a superior process (actually very few have a real quality
process).

Violations of neutral point of view is perhaps the most troublesome. Check
out how Nazis from WWII is described in the various versions of
"Wikipedia", you will be amazed.
Post by Strainu
Post by John Erling Blad
Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
something different from Wikipedia.
Each version of Wikipedia is a different encyclopedia. There are
vastly different inclusion policies and general policies between
the different encyclopedias out there, what links them is that they
provide information from all areas of knowledge.
Post by John Erling Blad
This is about core content policies.
Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of view.
The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects
rewrite
Post by John Erling Blad
world history to focus on their own local view.
Having a policy about it does not solve the issue. Having a policy one
can't really change will make it even worse.{{citation needed}} :)
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's
culture is
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the policies.
Post by John Erling Blad
Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on _content_,
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that are
highly
Post by John Erling Blad
troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
Armenian genocide for example.
Post by Gnangarra
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being global
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
preferred standards of presenting information based on article
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research
analysis
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
number of images, references, internal links, external links,
words,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured
articles
Post by John Erling Blad
on
Post by Gnangarra
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of
approaches
Post by Gnangarra
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We demonstrate
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
high-quality standards in information presentation are not
globally
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence
determines
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for
encyclopedic
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for
encyclopedic
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but local
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
very
Post by Gnangarra
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be pf
much
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
importance
Ziko
um
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the
ability
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity
for
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
banned
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator that
are
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give them
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
best
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes live,
ince a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its community.
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the
projects,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
meta is not a place that the content creating community
spends a
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
time.
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the
maintenance
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu <
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board
resolution,
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with
little
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff
from
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on
all
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not
have,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
with
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement,
let
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule
pushing
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different,
just
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
as
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the community
about
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
it.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community
did
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve
differently
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying
to
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
change
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult
for
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
small
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
communities.
Strainu
2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same
core
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
content
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all,
because a
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only
partial
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them
updated.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Creating and maintaining the core content policies
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
be
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central
policies
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/The_no_original_research_
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
policy
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make
some
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
sound
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to
refine
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
those?
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no
original
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at
some
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from
creators
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
point
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those
baseline
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like
central
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
user
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
would
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia,
Wikibooks,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
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Jean-Philippe Béland
2017-08-08 20:12:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources.

JP
Post by John Erling Blad
Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content policies.
Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of view.
The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects rewrite
world history to focus on their own local view.
Post by Gnangarra
its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's culture
is
Post by Gnangarra
more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the policies.
Post by John Erling Blad
Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on _content_, but
there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that are
highly
Post by John Erling Blad
troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
Armenian genocide for example.
Post by Gnangarra
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being global
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture and
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
preferred standards of presenting information based on article
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research analysis
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
number of images, references, internal links, external links,
words,
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured
articles
Post by John Erling Blad
on
Post by Gnangarra
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of
approaches
Post by Gnangarra
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We demonstrate
that
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
high-quality standards in information presentation are not globally
shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence
determines
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but local
and
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
very
Post by Gnangarra
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be pf
much
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
importance
Ziko
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the
ability
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity for
banned
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator that
are
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give them
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
best
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes live,
ince a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its community.
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the
projects,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
meta is not a place that the content creating community spends
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
time.
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the maintenance
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu <
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board
resolution,
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with
little
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta on
all
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not have,
with
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
little consideration on whether the manpower to implement,
let
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule
pushing
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different,
just
Post by Gnangarra
as
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the community
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
it.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the community
did
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve
differently
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
change
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult
for
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
small
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
communities.
Strainu
2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same core
content
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all, because
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only
partial
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them
updated.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Creating and maintaining the core content policies should
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
be
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in, they
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central
policies
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/The_no_original_research_
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
policy
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make
some
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
sound
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to
refine
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
those?
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no
original
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at
some
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from
creators
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
point
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if those
baseline
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like
central
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
user
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
would
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia,
Wikibooks,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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Gnangarra
2017-08-09 00:08:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland

Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources
​very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way you look
at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information and make
it possible for others to also access it the very nature of the sources is
dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible format risks the
continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient paper source
to intense UV light.

There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how to
"Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it . All of this gets more
complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its part of a
multidimensional connection to and in time, place, and circumstances by
bringing it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it self
changing the very nature of the knowledge. If our goal is to collect the
sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as communities to address the
uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the bounds of culture(language)
from which it originates
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland

Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources.
JP
Post by John Erling Blad
Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content policies.
Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of view.
The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects
rewrite
Post by John Erling Blad
world history to focus on their own local view.
Post by Gnangarra
its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's
culture
Post by John Erling Blad
is
Post by Gnangarra
more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the policies.
Post by John Erling Blad
Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on _content_,
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that are
highly
Post by John Erling Blad
troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
Armenian genocide for example.
Post by Gnangarra
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being
global
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
preferred standards of presenting information based on article
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research
analysis
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
number of images, references, internal links, external links,
words,
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured
articles
Post by John Erling Blad
on
Post by Gnangarra
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of
approaches
Post by Gnangarra
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We demonstrate
that
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
high-quality standards in information presentation are not
globally
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence
determines
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but local
and
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
very
Post by Gnangarra
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be
pf
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
much
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
importance
Ziko
um
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the
ability
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity
for
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
banned
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator that
are
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give them
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
best
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes
live,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
ince a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its
community.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the
projects,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
meta is not a place that the content creating community
spends
Post by John Erling Blad
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
time.
On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad <
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the
maintenance
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu <
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board
resolution,
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep the
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with
little
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push stuff
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta
on
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
all
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not
have,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
with
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
little consideration on whether the manpower to
implement,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
let
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule
pushing
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different,
just
Post by Gnangarra
as
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the community
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
it.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
did
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve
differently
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and trying
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
change
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the rules there by consensus would be much more difficult
for
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
small
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
communities.
Strainu
2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same
core
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
content
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all,
because
Post by John Erling Blad
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only
partial
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep them
updated.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Creating and maintaining the core content policies
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
be
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in,
they
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The central
policies
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/The_no_original_research_
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
policy
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make
some
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
sound
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to
refine
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
those?
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no
original
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise, at
some
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from
creators
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
point
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if
those
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
baseline
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like
central
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
user
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
would
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects (Wikipedia,
Wikibooks,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
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Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
_______________________________________________
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Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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--
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WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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--
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President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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Asaf Bartov
2017-08-09 00:41:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
I agree with Strainu's comments above.

I described some issues with adopting policies and ill-fitting policies
under the Community Governance capacity page, in the Community Capacity
Development program:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Capacity_Development/Community_governance


A.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland

Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources
​very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way you look
at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information and make
it possible for others to also access it the very nature of the sources is
dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible format risks the
continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient paper source
to intense UV light.
There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how to
"Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it . All of this gets more
complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its part of a
multidimensional connection to and in time, place, and circumstances by
bringing it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it self
changing the very nature of the knowledge. If our goal is to collect the
sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as communities to address the
uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the bounds of culture(language)
from which it originates
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland

Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources.
JP
Post by John Erling Blad
Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content
policies.
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of
view.
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects
rewrite
Post by John Erling Blad
world history to focus on their own local view.
Post by Gnangarra
its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's
culture
Post by John Erling Blad
is
Post by Gnangarra
more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the policies.
Post by John Erling Blad
Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on _content_,
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that
are
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
highly
Post by John Erling Blad
troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
Armenian genocide for example.
Post by Gnangarra
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being
global
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
preferred standards of presenting information based on article
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research
analysis
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
number of images, references, internal links, external links,
words,
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured
articles
Post by John Erling Blad
on
Post by Gnangarra
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of
approaches
Post by Gnangarra
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We
demonstrate
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
that
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
high-quality standards in information presentation are not
globally
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence
determines
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but
local
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
very
Post by Gnangarra
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be
pf
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
much
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
importance
Ziko
2017
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
um
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Gnangarra <
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the
ability
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity
for
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
banned
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator
that
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
are
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give
them
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
best
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes
live,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
ince a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its
community.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the
projects,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
meta is not a place that the content creating community
spends
Post by John Erling Blad
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
time.
On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad <
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the
maintenance
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu <
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board
resolution,
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep
the
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with
little
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push
stuff
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta
on
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
all
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not
have,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
with
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
little consideration on whether the manpower to
implement,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
let
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule
pushing
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different,
just
Post by Gnangarra
as
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the community
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
it.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
did
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve
differently
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and
trying
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
change
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the rules there by consensus would be much more
difficult
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
for
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
small
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
communities.
Strainu
2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same
core
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
content
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all,
because
Post by John Erling Blad
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only
partial
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep
them
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
updated.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Creating and maintaining the core content policies
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
be
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in,
they
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The
central
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
policies
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/The_no_original_research_
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
policy
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make
some
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
sound
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to
refine
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
those?
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no
original
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise,
at
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
some
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from
creators
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
point
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if
those
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
baseline
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like
central
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
user
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
would
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects
(Wikipedia,
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Wikibooks,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
_______________________________________________
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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--
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WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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John Erling Blad
2017-08-11 12:00:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Information is "facts told, heard, or discovered" (Oxford) or "knowledge
communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance". (I
would say data and not knowledge, but knowledge is good enough for this.)
If you can't observe the fact or circumstance, and can't communicate the
fact, how can there be the information?

Sorry, this does not make sense.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland

Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources
​very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way you look
at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information and make
it possible for others to also access it the very nature of the sources is
dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible format risks the
continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient paper source
to intense UV light.
There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how to
"Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it . All of this gets more
complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its part of a
multidimensional connection to and in time, place, and circumstances by
bringing it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it self
changing the very nature of the knowledge. If our goal is to collect the
sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as communities to address the
uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the bounds of culture(language)
from which it originates
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland

Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources.
JP
Post by John Erling Blad
Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content
policies.
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of
view.
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects
rewrite
Post by John Erling Blad
world history to focus on their own local view.
Post by Gnangarra
its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's
culture
Post by John Erling Blad
is
Post by Gnangarra
more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the policies.
Post by John Erling Blad
Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on _content_,
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that
are
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
highly
Post by John Erling Blad
troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
Armenian genocide for example.
Post by Gnangarra
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being
global
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
This article explores the relationship between linguistic culture
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
preferred standards of presenting information based on article
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research
analysis
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
of
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Post by Gnangarra
the
number of images, references, internal links, external links,
words,
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured
articles
Post by John Erling Blad
on
Post by Gnangarra
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of
approaches
Post by Gnangarra
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We
demonstrate
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
that
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
high-quality standards in information presentation are not
globally
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence
determines
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but
local
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
very
Post by Gnangarra
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to be
pf
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
much
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
importance
Ziko
2017
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
um
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Gnangarra <
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away the
ability
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
create the projects. Importantly you create the opportunity
for
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
banned
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator
that
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
are
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give
them
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
best
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes
live,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
ince a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its
community.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the
projects,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
meta is not a place that the content creating community
spends
Post by John Erling Blad
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
time.
On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad <
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the
maintenance
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu <
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board
resolution,
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep
the
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with
little
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push
stuff
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on meta
on
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
all
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not
have,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
with
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
little consideration on whether the manpower to
implement,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
let
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to rule
pushing
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is different,
just
Post by Gnangarra
as
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the community
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
it.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
did
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve
differently
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and
trying
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
change
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the rules there by consensus would be much more
difficult
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
for
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
small
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
communities.
Strainu
2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the same
core
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
content
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all,
because
Post by John Erling Blad
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only
partial
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep
them
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
updated.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Creating and maintaining the core content policies
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
be
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in,
they
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The
central
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
policies
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/The_no_original_research_
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
policy
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to make
some
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
sound
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to
refine
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
those?
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no
original
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources. It
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia. Likewise,
at
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
some
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
neutral point of view has become "do not diverge from
creators
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
point
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if
those
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
baseline
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects like
central
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
user
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
pages,
Post by Strainu
so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus the
projects
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
would
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
have
Post by Strainu
more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects
(Wikipedia,
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Wikibooks,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
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Rogol Domedonfors
2017-08-11 15:51:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Is it not rather late to be discussing what "knowledge" might be, towards
the end of the second decade of a mission to bring the sum of human
knowledge to the world, and in the middle of a major effort to determine
the strategy of the movement into its third and fourth decades? Surely by
now there is a clear, concise and actionable agreed definition of knowledge
that we can point to when people ask what all that money has been and
continues to be raised for? Why not just point to that common position
that everyone has signed up to?

"Rogol"
Post by John Erling Blad
Information is "facts told, heard, or discovered" (Oxford) or "knowledge
communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance". (I
would say data and not knowledge, but knowledge is good enough for this.)
If you can't observe the fact or circumstance, and can't communicate the
fact, how can there be the information?
Sorry, this does not make sense.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland

Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources
​very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way you
look
Post by Gnangarra
at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information and make
it possible for others to also access it the very nature of the sources
is
Post by Gnangarra
dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible format risks the
continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient paper
source
Post by Gnangarra
to intense UV light.
There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how to
"Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it . All of this gets more
complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its part of a
multidimensional connection to and in time, place, and circumstances by
bringing it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it self
changing the very nature of the knowledge. If our goal is to collect
the
Post by Gnangarra
sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as communities to address
the
Post by Gnangarra
uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the bounds of
culture(language)
Post by Gnangarra
from which it originates
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland

Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources.
JP
Post by John Erling Blad
Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content
policies.
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of
view.
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects
rewrite
Post by John Erling Blad
world history to focus on their own local view.
Post by Gnangarra
its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's
culture
Post by John Erling Blad
is
Post by Gnangarra
more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on
_content_,
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_ that
are
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
highly
Post by John Erling Blad
troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
Armenian genocide for example.
Post by Gnangarra
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being
global
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/abstract
This article explores the relationship between linguistic
culture
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
preferred standards of presenting information based on
article
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research
analysis
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
number of images, references, internal links, external links,
words,
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and Featured
articles
Post by John Erling Blad
on
Post by Gnangarra
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity of
approaches
Post by Gnangarra
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We
demonstrate
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
that
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
high-quality standards in information presentation are not
globally
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence
determines
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but
local
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
very
Post by Gnangarra
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem to
be
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
pf
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
much
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
importance
Ziko
2017
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
um
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Gnangarra <
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
ability
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
create the projects. Importantly you create the
opportunity
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
for
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
banned
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the Incubator
that
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
are
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give
them
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
best
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project goes
live,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
ince a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its
community.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for the
projects,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
meta is not a place that the content creating community
spends
Post by John Erling Blad
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
time.
On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad <
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the
maintenance
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu <
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by board
resolution,
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to keep
the
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people with
little
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push
stuff
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on
meta
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
on
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
all
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does not
have,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
with
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
little consideration on whether the manpower to
implement,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
let
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to
rule
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
pushing
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is
different,
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
just
Post by Gnangarra
as
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the
community
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
it.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
did
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
realize that in the beginning, at least it can evolve
differently
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and
trying
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
change
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the rules there by consensus would be much more
difficult
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
for
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
small
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
communities.
Strainu
2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the
same
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
core
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
content
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all,
because
Post by John Erling Blad
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or only
partial
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
It
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
takes a lot of time to actually make them and keep
them
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
updated.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Creating and maintaining the core content policies
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
be
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
something
that small projects should invest a lot of time in,
they
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
should
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
simply
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Strainu
able to point to existing policies on Meta. The
central
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
policies
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
should
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/The_no_original_research_
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
policy
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to
make
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
some
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
sound
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
baseline
Post by Strainu
policies, and with the option for local projects to
refine
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
those?
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Perhaps
Post by Strainu
with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without "no
original
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
research"
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
diverging into verifiability of external sources.
It
Post by Gnangarra
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should
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be
Post by Gnangarra
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about
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Post by Strainu
original research in content on Wikipedia.
Likewise,
Post by Gnangarra
at
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some
Post by John Erling Blad
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projects
Post by Gnangarra
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neutral point of view has become "do not diverge
from
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creators
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point
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of
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view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice if
those
Post by John Erling Blad
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Post by Gnangarra
baseline
Post by John Erling Blad
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policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects
like
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central
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user
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pages,
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so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus
the
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projects
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would
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have
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The same thing apply to other meta projects
(Wikipedia,
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Wikibooks,
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Wiktionary, etc).
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Richard Farmbrough
2017-08-11 16:02:36 UTC
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Raw Message
The problem of knowledge is much older than Wikipedia. It is part of the
reason that so many intelligent people belive things that are "simply not
so".
Post by Rogol Domedonfors
Is it not rather late to be discussing what "knowledge" might be, towards
the end of the second decade of a mission to bring the sum of human
knowledge to the world, and in the middle of a major effort to determine
the strategy of the movement into its third and fourth decades? Surely by
now there is a clear, concise and actionable agreed definition of knowledge
that we can point to when people ask what all that money has been and
continues to be raised for? Why not just point to that common position
that everyone has signed up to?
"Rogol"
Post by John Erling Blad
Information is "facts told, heard, or discovered" (Oxford) or "knowledge
communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance".
(I
Post by John Erling Blad
would say data and not knowledge, but knowledge is good enough for this.)
If you can't observe the fact or circumstance, and can't communicate the
fact, how can there be the information?
Sorry, this does not make sense.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland

Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources
​very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way you
look
Post by Gnangarra
at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information and
make
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
it possible for others to also access it the very nature of the sources
is
Post by Gnangarra
dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible format risks the
continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient paper
source
Post by Gnangarra
to intense UV light.
There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how to
"Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it . All of this gets more
complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its part
of a
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
multidimensional connection to and in time, place, and circumstances
by
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
bringing it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it self
changing the very nature of the knowledge. If our goal is to collect
the
Post by Gnangarra
sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as communities to address
the
Post by Gnangarra
uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the bounds of
culture(language)
Post by Gnangarra
from which it originates
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland

Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources.
JP
Post by John Erling Blad
Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to create
something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content
policies.
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point of
view.
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where projects
rewrite
Post by John Erling Blad
world history to focus on their own local view.
Post by Gnangarra
its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so who's
culture
Post by John Erling Blad
is
Post by Gnangarra
more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the
policies.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on
_content_,
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
there should be no differences on _policy_ about that content.
Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
are
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
highly
Post by John Erling Blad
troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
Armenian genocide for example.
Post by Gnangarra
to quote, worth a read before even considering policies being
global
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/
abstract
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
This article explores the relationship between linguistic
culture
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
preferred standards of presenting information based on
article
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary research
analysis
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
of
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Post by Gnangarra
the
number of images, references, internal links, external
links,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
words,
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
characters, as well as their proportions in Good and
Featured
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
articles
Post by John Erling Blad
on
Post by Gnangarra
the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high diversity
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
approaches
Post by Gnangarra
and format preferences, correlating with culture. We
demonstrate
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
that
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
high-quality standards in information presentation are not
globally
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
shared
and that in many aspects, the language culture's influence
determines
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
what
is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for
encyclopedic
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective” but
local
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
very
Post by Gnangarra
subjective.
The number of pillars depends on the language version...
And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem
to
Post by John Erling Blad
be
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
pf
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
much
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
importance
Ziko
2017
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
um
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Five pillars are moot.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Gnangarra <
Post by Gnangarra
The moment you have a centralised policy you take away
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
ability
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
that
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
create the projects. Importantly you create the
opportunity
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
for
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
banned
Post by John Erling Blad
and
Post by Gnangarra
blocked editors to decide what happens in a community.
By having a base set of simple policies in the
Incubator
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
that
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
are
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
atuomatically created when a project starts up you give
them
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
best
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
guide
Post by Gnangarra
to establishing themselves well before that project
goes
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
live,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
ince a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
project is live it has to be allowed to develop its
community.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
projects,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
but
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
meta is not a place that the content creating community
spends
Post by John Erling Blad
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
time.
On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad <
Post by John Erling Blad
Having centralized core policies would lessen the
maintenance
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
process,
Post by John Erling Blad
not increase them.
On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu <
Post by Strainu
The core policies should be the ones pushed by
board
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
resolution,
Post by Gnangarra
and
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
those should be the absolute minimum required to
keep
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
projects
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people
with
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
little
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
understanding of small Wikipedias will try to push
stuff
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
en.wp.
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC on
meta
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
on
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
all
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
the
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
have,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
with
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
little consideration on whether the manpower to
implement,
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
let
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
alone
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to
rule
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
pushing
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
without
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
local context.
Having a community take a rule from en.wp is
different,
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
just
Post by Gnangarra
as
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
long
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
as some kind of discussion happens within the
community
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
about
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
it.
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Even
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
if the rule is really useless or harmful and the
community
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
did
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
not
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
realize that in the beginning, at least it can
evolve
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
differently
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
from
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the English one. Have a centralized repository and
trying
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
to
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
change
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
the rules there by consensus would be much more
difficult
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
for
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
small
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
communities.
Strainu
2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the
same
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
core
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
content
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
policies,
but with slightly different wording. Nearly all,
because
Post by John Erling Blad
a
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
lot
Post by Gnangarra
of
Post by John Erling Blad
the
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Strainu
smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or
only
Post by John Erling Blad
Post by Gnangarra
Post by Jean-Philippe Béland
Post by John Erling Blad
partial
Post by Gnangarra
Post by John Erling Blad
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policies.
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It
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takes a lot of time to actually make them and
keep
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them
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updated.
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Creating and maintaining the core content
policies
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should
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not
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be
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something
that small projects should invest a lot of time
in,
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they
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should
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simply
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be
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able to point to existing policies on Meta. The
central
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policies
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should
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be
localized if necessary.
Checking Meta I find
- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/The_no_original_research_
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policy
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- https://meta.wikimedia.org/
wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
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I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation to
make
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some
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sound
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baseline
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policies, and with the option for local projects
to
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refine
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those?
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Perhaps
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with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
Lets try to make the policies accurate, without
"no
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original
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research"
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diverging into verifiability of external sources.
It
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should
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be
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about
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original research in content on Wikipedia.
Likewise,
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at
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some
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projects
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neutral point of view has become "do not diverge
from
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creators
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point
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of
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view"…
Would this be possible? It would be really nice
if
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those
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baseline
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policies
pages could be copied to the individual projects
like
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central
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user
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pages,
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so they would be "internal" to the projects. Thus
the
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projects
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would
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have
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more "ownership" of them.
The same thing apply to other meta projects
(Wikipedia,
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Wikibooks,
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Wiktionary, etc).
Jeblad
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/
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--
GN.
President Wikimedia Australia
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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