Discussion:
[Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"
(too old to reply)
Erik Moeller
2006-03-16 05:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Just seen on Wikinews:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikimania_2006_to_be_held_in_Hong_Kong

Looks like a great effort. Is it official that there are now national
Wikimania conferences in addition to the international one?

Erik
Patrick, Brad
2006-03-16 05:12:44 UTC
Permalink
News to me. I am especially interested in the (as far as I know)
unlicensed use of WMF copyright material. Did someone ask and I missed
it?

And someone we know will probably have a fit re: design guidelines.

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Erik Moeller
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:10 AM
To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Just seen on Wikinews:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikimania_2006_to_be_held_in_Hong_Ko
ng

Looks like a great effort. Is it official that there are now national
Wikimania conferences in addition to the international one?

Erik
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

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R.O.C
2006-03-16 06:21:09 UTC
Permalink
i was also wondering whether it is fit to use "wikimania" for local or
regional wikimedia conferences that are not organized directly by the
foundation. what's the position of the foundation about the use of
"wikimania"?

roc (User:R.O.C)
--
Post by Patrick, Brad
News to me. I am especially interested in the (as far as I know)
unlicensed use of WMF copyright material. Did someone ask and I missed
it?
And someone we know will probably have a fit re: design guidelines.
-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Erik Moeller
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:10 AM
To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikimania_2006_to_be_held_in_Hong_Ko
ng
Looks like a great effort. Is it official that there are now national
Wikimania conferences in addition to the international one?
Erik
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Disclaimer under IRS Circular 230: Unless expressly stated otherwise in
this transmission, nothing contained in this message is intended or written
to be used, nor may it be relied upon or used, (1) by any taxpayer for the
purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer under the
Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended and/or (2) by any person to
support the promotion or marketing of or to recommend any Federal tax
transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this message.
If you desire a formal opinion on a particular tax matter for the purpose
of avoiding the imposition of any penalties, we will discuss the additional
Treasury requirements that must be met and whether it is possible to meet
those requirements under the circumstances, as well as the anticipated time
and additional fees involved.
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Confidentiality Disclaimer: This e-mail message and any attachments are
private communication sent by a law firm, Fowler White Boggs Banker P.A.,
and may contain confidential, legally privileged information meant solely
for the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately
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Angela
2006-03-16 06:26:43 UTC
Permalink
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.

Angela.
R.O.C
2006-03-16 07:09:24 UTC
Permalink
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?

just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the world,
not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
"china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia (along
with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
expressed interests to attend.

the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were beijing,
shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a conference
within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but there
is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
issued to mainland chinese.

-roc (User:R.O.C)
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Angela
2006-03-16 08:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
That seems a better solution than using "Wikimania" for more than one
conference. I expect the Trademark Committee would be happy to grant
the rights for the use of "Wikimedia" in that context, though soufron
et al would need to confirm that.

Angela.
SJ
2006-03-16 08:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angela
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
That seems a better solution than using "Wikimania" for more than one
conference. I expect the Trademark Committee would be happy to grant
the rights for the use of "Wikimedia" in that context, though soufron
et al would need to confirm that.
And as with "Wikimedia Conference Netherlands". What is the standard
way of asking this of the trademark committee?
Post by Angela
I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
Oh yes... :-) Even some who will make it to both events, and provide
cross-pollination.

SJ
SJ
2006-03-16 08:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angela
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
That seems a better solution than using "Wikimania" for more than one
conference. I expect the Trademark Committee would be happy to grant
the rights for the use of "Wikimedia" in that context, though soufron
et al would need to confirm that.
And as with "Wikimedia Conference Netherlands". What is the standard
way of asking this of the trademark committee?
Post by Angela
I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
Oh yes... :-) Even some who will make it to both events, and provide
cross-pollination.

SJ
Anthere
2006-03-16 08:33:31 UTC
Permalink
I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
I could not see the information in the news. Do you have any idea how
many people you could gather ?

ant
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the world,
not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
"china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia (along
with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
expressed interests to attend.
the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were beijing,
shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a conference
within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but there
is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
issued to mainland chinese.
-roc (User:R.O.C)
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
_______________________________________________
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foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
THD
2006-03-16 09:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Ladies and all,

I am Theodoranian from zh.wikipedia. I went to Frankfurt last year, and
now I am thinking to go to Boston to join the 2006 wikimania.

I want to explain the "2006 Chinese wikimania" to you.
Actually, this annual conference is first-time-held this year, since
Zh.wikipedians from
China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and else places thought that there should be a
meetup.

The formal name of this meetup is "??????" in Chinese (which literally means
"Chinese Wikimedia Annual Conference"), and we don't have an appropriate
English
name for it yet. Now, we are still thinking what would be good. However,
somebody
translated the "CWAC" into English as "Chinese wikimania". There seems to be
a cultural
gap which misleads the translator to regard "Wiki-meetup" as "wikimania".

Just for your information.

Theodoanian
Post by Anthere
I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
I could not see the information in the news. Do you have any idea how
many people you could gather ?
ant
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the
world,
Post by R.O.C
not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
"china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia(along
with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
expressed interests to attend.
the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were
beijing,
Post by R.O.C
shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a
conference
Post by R.O.C
within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but
there
Post by R.O.C
is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
issued to mainland chinese.
-roc (User:R.O.C)
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
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foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
SJ
2006-03-16 10:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Theodoranian : cool; I hope to see you in Boston. And best wishes for
a great event in HK.
There seems to be a cultural gap which misleads the translator to regard "Wiki-meetup" as "wikimania".
Well, any time you get too many wikipedians together, something manic
is bound to happen...

SJ
Hi, Ladies and all,
I am Theodoranian from zh.wikipedia. I went to Frankfurt last year, and
now I am thinking to go to Boston to join the 2006 wikimania.
I want to explain the "2006 Chinese wikimania" to you.
Actually, this annual conference is first-time-held this year, since
Zh.wikipedians from
China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and else places thought that there should be a
meetup.
The formal name of this meetup is "??????" in Chinese (which literally means
"Chinese Wikimedia Annual Conference"), and we don't have an appropriate
English
name for it yet. Now, we are still thinking what would be good. However,
somebody
translated the "CWAC" into English as "Chinese wikimania". There seems to be
a cultural
gap which misleads the translator to regard "Wiki-meetup" as "wikimania".
Just for your information.
Theodoanian
Post by Anthere
I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
I could not see the information in the news. Do you have any idea how
many people you could gather ?
ant
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the
world,
Post by R.O.C
not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
"china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia(along
with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
expressed interests to attend.
the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were
beijing,
Post by R.O.C
shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a
conference
Post by R.O.C
within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but
there
Post by R.O.C
is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
issued to mainland chinese.
-roc (User:R.O.C)
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
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http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
--
++SJ
R.O.C
2006-03-16 11:09:57 UTC
Permalink
i think so too, there is a huge cultural and language gap, many chinese
users have misunderstood the meaning of "wikimania" as simply a short word
for "wikimedia conference" or "wikimedia meetup" instead of "INTERNATIONAL
wikimedia conference" (of wikimedia foundation). most of them were not aware
that "wikimania" is a brand name and should be a trademark for the
foundation.

the chinese name for the chinese conference "??????" can be more precisely
translated as "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia annual conference".
since the english name is seeked largely to serve international
attenders/readers, i think that suggestions/advice from international users
on the mailing list would probably be helpful and productive. if you have
comments, please kindly send it to the wikizh-l list at
wikizh-l at wikipedia.org.

(i personally still favor "chinese wikimedia conference" if authorized by
the foundation, which seems likely.)

the planning of the chinese conference is still in the early stage. it's not
clear how many would attend, but personally i would not be surprised by a
number between 20 and 100. it will be held on august 26-27 after wikimania
in boston.

roc (User:R.O.C)
--

? 2006/3/16?THD <theodoranian at gmail.com> ???
Post by THD
Hi, Ladies and all,
I am Theodoranian from zh.wikipedia. I went to Frankfurt last year, and
now I am thinking to go to Boston to join the 2006 wikimania.
I want to explain the "2006 Chinese wikimania" to you.
Actually, this annual conference is first-time-held this year, since
Zh.wikipedians from
China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and else places thought that there should be a
meetup.
The formal name of this meetup is "??????" in Chinese (which literally means
"Chinese Wikimedia Annual Conference"), and we don't have an appropriate
English
name for it yet. Now, we are still thinking what would be good. However,
somebody
translated the "CWAC" into English as "Chinese wikimania". There seems to be
a cultural
gap which misleads the translator to regard "Wiki-meetup" as "wikimania".
Just for your information.
Theodoanian
Post by Anthere
I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
I could not see the information in the news. Do you have any idea how
many people you could gather ?
ant
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia
conference"?
Post by THD
Post by Anthere
Post by R.O.C
just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the
world,
Post by R.O.C
not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
"china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia (along
with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
expressed interests to attend.
the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were
beijing,
Post by R.O.C
shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a
conference
Post by R.O.C
within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but
there
Post by R.O.C
is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
issued to mainland chinese.
-roc (User:R.O.C)
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Delphine Ménard
2006-03-16 12:55:07 UTC
Permalink
A few random thoughts about this.

I am extremely happy that the Asian continents, and the Chinese
particularly, are working on such a project.

As a matter of fact, I believe that local "Wikimanias" or local
"Wikimedia conferences" should be held on a very regular basis, in
order to strengthen the community around the world and regionally.

I have been thinking about these extensively thanks to Effeitsanders
who has launched the idea of the "Wikimania reloaded" (working name)
in the Netherlands and has many times asked for my input, which I
scarcely gave (I didn't know what to say). So here are my thoughts
about the whole idea, now that I have thought about it.

I believe regional conferences should be planned with the Foundation
for many reasons:
1) I find it a bit sad having two conferences (or three, as is) so
close together. The idea of having a "worldwide conference" should not
be impeeded by other conferences around the world, because it:
a) spreads the attendance
b) spreads the sponsors
c) spreads the speakers
d) somehow defeats the whole point of having a world-wide conference
(why would I go to Boston or Frankfurt if there is a conference nearer
to me three weeks afterwards?)
And anyway, it is using the trademarks, so the Foundation should have
an input in it, especially where local chapters are not present, so as
to make sure that the name and spirit is used in the right way (not to
mention the logos ;-) )

In the end, I believe working together allows synergy. Working each in
our own little corner thins out the efforts. I urge the organizers of
the Chinese conference to get in touch with the Board to explain what
they want to do and how, so that we can coordinate all of this.

2) I am more in favour of an "Olympic Games" type thing, where we'd
have say Wikimania as an annual worldwide wikimedia conference once
every 4 years (or 2, or 6, I don't know) and then in the years in
between as many local conferences as there are people ready to
organize them.

That's for the grand scheme.

On the more specific matter of trademark and logo use for the Chinese
Conference:

1) Why use the Wikipedia logo if it is a Wikimedia conference?
2) I've changed the licence on the poster to a dual licence
{{copyrightbyWikimedia]] for the logo and CC-BY-SA for the design.

Best,

Delphine
(who still hopes to see Chinese and Dutch in Boston :-( )

--
~notafish
Walter van Kalken
2006-03-16 13:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Delphine Ménard
Delphine
(who still hopes to see Chinese and Dutch in Boston :-( )
--
~notafish
Would love to come to Boston .... but no funds .... anyone wants to
sponsor me, last year I was to white to get a sponsorship? Wikimania
reloaded in nl: seems planned about a week before I come to nl: for my
brothers marriage. So I requested the date be moved. I hope so.

a question to the Chinese .... would non Chinese be welcome? As Hong
Kong is a lot more doable for me. Cheap trips from BKK!

Walter/Waerth
THD
2006-03-16 14:09:37 UTC
Permalink
Hello, All,

It's me again.

Why hold Chinese meetup just 3 weeks after the 2006 Wikimania? Because
we assume that there will be someone attending 2006 wikimania, and we
want that one to share what he heard and saw in Boston with local
wikipedians in OUR OWN LANGUAGE. If considerate enough, you shall know
that it's not easy for people from PRC to go to the United States.
Even in Hong Kong, I am worried about there would be some people can't
come to join for visa and financial issues. And, please don't think
it's easy to talk, to write, to share in a totally different language.

Chinese wikipedia community is still young and small. Chinese
wikipedians are seperated by historic and political factors. Taking me
as an example, in the past, I couldn't imagine I can join a project
and work together with people from the "Hostile the Other side of the
Strait". Then, we argued and had many conflicts in the Chinese
Wikipedia. And now, we are trying to see each other to make friends,
to share the knowledge of interllectual property rights, the new
discoveries of wiki technologies, and to exchange opinions of managing
and promoting the wikipedia and all the projects which Wikimedia
foundation hosts, in our conservative society and even in an
environment where PRC government banned Wikipedia.

I admit the importance to work together. But I don't think we should
do the same thing together all the time. After the wikimania in
Boston, it's time to spread to strenthen the power of Wikimedia.

Sincerely,

Theodoranian
Post by Delphine Ménard
A few random thoughts about this.
I am extremely happy that the Asian continents, and the Chinese
particularly, are working on such a project.
As a matter of fact, I believe that local "Wikimanias" or local
"Wikimedia conferences" should be held on a very regular basis, in
order to strengthen the community around the world and regionally.
I have been thinking about these extensively thanks to Effeitsanders
who has launched the idea of the "Wikimania reloaded" (working name)
in the Netherlands and has many times asked for my input, which I
scarcely gave (I didn't know what to say). So here are my thoughts
about the whole idea, now that I have thought about it.
I believe regional conferences should be planned with the Foundation
1) I find it a bit sad having two conferences (or three, as is) so
close together. The idea of having a "worldwide conference" should not
a) spreads the attendance
b) spreads the sponsors
c) spreads the speakers
d) somehow defeats the whole point of having a world-wide conference
(why would I go to Boston or Frankfurt if there is a conference nearer
to me three weeks afterwards?)
And anyway, it is using the trademarks, so the Foundation should have
an input in it, especially where local chapters are not present, so as
to make sure that the name and spirit is used in the right way (not to
mention the logos ;-) )
In the end, I believe working together allows synergy. Working each in
our own little corner thins out the efforts. I urge the organizers of
the Chinese conference to get in touch with the Board to explain what
they want to do and how, so that we can coordinate all of this.
2) I am more in favour of an "Olympic Games" type thing, where we'd
have say Wikimania as an annual worldwide wikimedia conference once
every 4 years (or 2, or 6, I don't know) and then in the years in
between as many local conferences as there are people ready to
organize them.
That's for the grand scheme.
On the more specific matter of trademark and logo use for the Chinese
1) Why use the Wikipedia logo if it is a Wikimedia conference?
2) I've changed the licence on the poster to a dual licence
{{copyrightbyWikimedia]] for the logo and CC-BY-SA for the design.
Best,
Delphine
(who still hopes to see Chinese and Dutch in Boston :-( )
--
~notafish
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
SJ
2006-03-16 23:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by THD
Why hold Chinese meetup just 3 weeks after the 2006 Wikimania?
Because
Post by THD
we assume that there will be someone attending 2006 wikimania, and we
want that one to share what he heard and saw in Boston with local
wikipedians in OUR OWN LANGUAGE. If considerate enough, you shall know
that it's not easy for people from PRC to go to the United States.
Hello again,

This makes perfect sense. I am not concerned that this will detract
from Wikimania in any way; I think it will strengthen it. Having
these conferences around the same time, paying attention to one
another, will be a Good Thing.
Post by THD
1) I find it a bit sad having two conferences (or three, as is) so
close together. The idea of having a "worldwide conference" should not
Post by THD
a) spreads the attendance
b) spreads the sponsors
c) spreads the speakers
d) somehow defeats the whole point of having a world-wide conference
(why would I go to Boston or Frankfurt if there is a conference nearer
to me three weeks afterwards?)

I actually think this will work out fine. We expect to have to limit
Wikimania attendance; and the sponsors and speakers for the different
events seem unlikely to overlap (aside from which, Wikimania proper is
a much larger event than the others).

As effeitsanders notes, a national event is very different from a
worldwide event; and those who are planning on travelling far to make
it to the international Wikimedia Conference will likely still come
and also gladly attend a local event close to home. The idea of
holding these satellite events after the international one, so that
great ideas and initiatives can be reprised or passed on, sounds cool
and workable to me.

Cheers and all success,
SJ
Ray Saintonge
2006-03-17 00:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by THD
Chinese wikipedia community is still young and small. Chinese
wikipedians are seperated by historic and political factors. Taking me
as an example, in the past, I couldn't imagine I can join a project
and work together with people from the "Hostile the Other side of the
Strait". Then, we argued and had many conflicts in the Chinese
Wikipedia. And now, we are trying to see each other to make friends,
to share the knowledge of intellectual property rights, the new
discoveries of wiki technologies, and to exchange opinions of managing
and promoting the wikipedia and all the projects which Wikimedia
foundation hosts, in our conservative society and even in an
environment where PRC government banned Wikipedia.
This is what it is all about!

While I do not agree with the actions of the PRC government in this, I
can understand why they might be doing it. It is still better than in
North Korea where as far as I can tell they avoid the problem by having
no public access to the internet at all. During the time of the Shu
Jing the government could feel secure through it's control of the
calendar. Being unable to control the public's access to information
can be very scary for governments who no longer would have the ability
to control the results. When the people cpme to an understanding by
themselves without the help of government, what need do we have of
governments?
Post by THD
I admit the importance to work together. But I don't think we should
do the same thing together all the time. After the wikimania in
Boston, it's time to spread to strenthen the power of Wikimedia.
That's for the affected people to resolve. I will not be attending this
event in Hong Kong, so my opinion does not matter.

Ec
SJ
2006-03-16 23:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by THD
Why hold Chinese meetup just 3 weeks after the 2006 Wikimania?
Because
Post by THD
we assume that there will be someone attending 2006 wikimania, and we
want that one to share what he heard and saw in Boston with local
wikipedians in OUR OWN LANGUAGE. If considerate enough, you shall know
that it's not easy for people from PRC to go to the United States.
Hello again,

This makes perfect sense. I am not concerned that this will detract
from Wikimania in any way; I think it will strengthen it. Having
these conferences around the same time, paying attention to one
another, will be a Good Thing.
Post by THD
1) I find it a bit sad having two conferences (or three, as is) so
close together. The idea of having a "worldwide conference" should not
Post by THD
a) spreads the attendance
b) spreads the sponsors
c) spreads the speakers
d) somehow defeats the whole point of having a world-wide conference
(why would I go to Boston or Frankfurt if there is a conference nearer
to me three weeks afterwards?)

I actually think this will work out fine. We expect to have to limit
Wikimania attendance; and the sponsors and speakers for the different
events seem unlikely to overlap (aside from which, Wikimania proper is
a much larger event than the others).

As effeitsanders notes, a national event is very different from a
worldwide event; and those who are planning on travelling far to make
it to the international Wikimedia Conference will likely still come
and also gladly attend a local event close to home. The idea of
holding these satellite events after the international one, so that
great ideas and initiatives can be reprised or passed on, sounds cool
and workable to me.

Cheers and all success,
SJ
Ray Saintonge
2006-03-17 00:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by THD
Chinese wikipedia community is still young and small. Chinese
wikipedians are seperated by historic and political factors. Taking me
as an example, in the past, I couldn't imagine I can join a project
and work together with people from the "Hostile the Other side of the
Strait". Then, we argued and had many conflicts in the Chinese
Wikipedia. And now, we are trying to see each other to make friends,
to share the knowledge of intellectual property rights, the new
discoveries of wiki technologies, and to exchange opinions of managing
and promoting the wikipedia and all the projects which Wikimedia
foundation hosts, in our conservative society and even in an
environment where PRC government banned Wikipedia.
This is what it is all about!

While I do not agree with the actions of the PRC government in this, I
can understand why they might be doing it. It is still better than in
North Korea where as far as I can tell they avoid the problem by having
no public access to the internet at all. During the time of the Shu
Jing the government could feel secure through it's control of the
calendar. Being unable to control the public's access to information
can be very scary for governments who no longer would have the ability
to control the results. When the people cpme to an understanding by
themselves without the help of government, what need do we have of
governments?
Post by THD
I admit the importance to work together. But I don't think we should
do the same thing together all the time. After the wikimania in
Boston, it's time to spread to strenthen the power of Wikimedia.
That's for the affected people to resolve. I will not be attending this
event in Hong Kong, so my opinion does not matter.

Ec
Walter van Kalken
2006-03-16 13:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Delphine Ménard
Delphine
(who still hopes to see Chinese and Dutch in Boston :-( )
--
~notafish
Would love to come to Boston .... but no funds .... anyone wants to
sponsor me, last year I was to white to get a sponsorship? Wikimania
reloaded in nl: seems planned about a week before I come to nl: for my
brothers marriage. So I requested the date be moved. I hope so.

a question to the Chinese .... would non Chinese be welcome? As Hong
Kong is a lot more doable for me. Cheap trips from BKK!

Walter/Waerth
THD
2006-03-16 14:09:37 UTC
Permalink
Hello, All,

It's me again.

Why hold Chinese meetup just 3 weeks after the 2006 Wikimania? Because
we assume that there will be someone attending 2006 wikimania, and we
want that one to share what he heard and saw in Boston with local
wikipedians in OUR OWN LANGUAGE. If considerate enough, you shall know
that it's not easy for people from PRC to go to the United States.
Even in Hong Kong, I am worried about there would be some people can't
come to join for visa and financial issues. And, please don't think
it's easy to talk, to write, to share in a totally different language.

Chinese wikipedia community is still young and small. Chinese
wikipedians are seperated by historic and political factors. Taking me
as an example, in the past, I couldn't imagine I can join a project
and work together with people from the "Hostile the Other side of the
Strait". Then, we argued and had many conflicts in the Chinese
Wikipedia. And now, we are trying to see each other to make friends,
to share the knowledge of interllectual property rights, the new
discoveries of wiki technologies, and to exchange opinions of managing
and promoting the wikipedia and all the projects which Wikimedia
foundation hosts, in our conservative society and even in an
environment where PRC government banned Wikipedia.

I admit the importance to work together. But I don't think we should
do the same thing together all the time. After the wikimania in
Boston, it's time to spread to strenthen the power of Wikimedia.

Sincerely,

Theodoranian
Post by Delphine Ménard
A few random thoughts about this.
I am extremely happy that the Asian continents, and the Chinese
particularly, are working on such a project.
As a matter of fact, I believe that local "Wikimanias" or local
"Wikimedia conferences" should be held on a very regular basis, in
order to strengthen the community around the world and regionally.
I have been thinking about these extensively thanks to Effeitsanders
who has launched the idea of the "Wikimania reloaded" (working name)
in the Netherlands and has many times asked for my input, which I
scarcely gave (I didn't know what to say). So here are my thoughts
about the whole idea, now that I have thought about it.
I believe regional conferences should be planned with the Foundation
1) I find it a bit sad having two conferences (or three, as is) so
close together. The idea of having a "worldwide conference" should not
a) spreads the attendance
b) spreads the sponsors
c) spreads the speakers
d) somehow defeats the whole point of having a world-wide conference
(why would I go to Boston or Frankfurt if there is a conference nearer
to me three weeks afterwards?)
And anyway, it is using the trademarks, so the Foundation should have
an input in it, especially where local chapters are not present, so as
to make sure that the name and spirit is used in the right way (not to
mention the logos ;-) )
In the end, I believe working together allows synergy. Working each in
our own little corner thins out the efforts. I urge the organizers of
the Chinese conference to get in touch with the Board to explain what
they want to do and how, so that we can coordinate all of this.
2) I am more in favour of an "Olympic Games" type thing, where we'd
have say Wikimania as an annual worldwide wikimedia conference once
every 4 years (or 2, or 6, I don't know) and then in the years in
between as many local conferences as there are people ready to
organize them.
That's for the grand scheme.
On the more specific matter of trademark and logo use for the Chinese
1) Why use the Wikipedia logo if it is a Wikimedia conference?
2) I've changed the licence on the poster to a dual licence
{{copyrightbyWikimedia]] for the logo and CC-BY-SA for the design.
Best,
Delphine
(who still hopes to see Chinese and Dutch in Boston :-( )
--
~notafish
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Delphine Ménard
2006-03-16 12:55:07 UTC
Permalink
A few random thoughts about this.

I am extremely happy that the Asian continents, and the Chinese
particularly, are working on such a project.

As a matter of fact, I believe that local "Wikimanias" or local
"Wikimedia conferences" should be held on a very regular basis, in
order to strengthen the community around the world and regionally.

I have been thinking about these extensively thanks to Effeitsanders
who has launched the idea of the "Wikimania reloaded" (working name)
in the Netherlands and has many times asked for my input, which I
scarcely gave (I didn't know what to say). So here are my thoughts
about the whole idea, now that I have thought about it.

I believe regional conferences should be planned with the Foundation
for many reasons:
1) I find it a bit sad having two conferences (or three, as is) so
close together. The idea of having a "worldwide conference" should not
be impeeded by other conferences around the world, because it:
a) spreads the attendance
b) spreads the sponsors
c) spreads the speakers
d) somehow defeats the whole point of having a world-wide conference
(why would I go to Boston or Frankfurt if there is a conference nearer
to me three weeks afterwards?)
And anyway, it is using the trademarks, so the Foundation should have
an input in it, especially where local chapters are not present, so as
to make sure that the name and spirit is used in the right way (not to
mention the logos ;-) )

In the end, I believe working together allows synergy. Working each in
our own little corner thins out the efforts. I urge the organizers of
the Chinese conference to get in touch with the Board to explain what
they want to do and how, so that we can coordinate all of this.

2) I am more in favour of an "Olympic Games" type thing, where we'd
have say Wikimania as an annual worldwide wikimedia conference once
every 4 years (or 2, or 6, I don't know) and then in the years in
between as many local conferences as there are people ready to
organize them.

That's for the grand scheme.

On the more specific matter of trademark and logo use for the Chinese
Conference:

1) Why use the Wikipedia logo if it is a Wikimedia conference?
2) I've changed the licence on the poster to a dual licence
{{copyrightbyWikimedia]] for the logo and CC-BY-SA for the design.

Best,

Delphine
(who still hopes to see Chinese and Dutch in Boston :-( )

--
~notafish
SJ
2006-03-16 10:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Theodoranian : cool; I hope to see you in Boston. And best wishes for
a great event in HK.
There seems to be a cultural gap which misleads the translator to regard "Wiki-meetup" as "wikimania".
Well, any time you get too many wikipedians together, something manic
is bound to happen...

SJ
Hi, Ladies and all,
I am Theodoranian from zh.wikipedia. I went to Frankfurt last year, and
now I am thinking to go to Boston to join the 2006 wikimania.
I want to explain the "2006 Chinese wikimania" to you.
Actually, this annual conference is first-time-held this year, since
Zh.wikipedians from
China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and else places thought that there should be a
meetup.
The formal name of this meetup is "??????" in Chinese (which literally means
"Chinese Wikimedia Annual Conference"), and we don't have an appropriate
English
name for it yet. Now, we are still thinking what would be good. However,
somebody
translated the "CWAC" into English as "Chinese wikimania". There seems to be
a cultural
gap which misleads the translator to regard "Wiki-meetup" as "wikimania".
Just for your information.
Theodoanian
Post by Anthere
I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
I could not see the information in the news. Do you have any idea how
many people you could gather ?
ant
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the
world,
Post by R.O.C
not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
"china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia(along
with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
expressed interests to attend.
the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were
beijing,
Post by R.O.C
shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a
conference
Post by R.O.C
within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but
there
Post by R.O.C
is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
issued to mainland chinese.
-roc (User:R.O.C)
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
--
++SJ
R.O.C
2006-03-16 11:09:57 UTC
Permalink
i think so too, there is a huge cultural and language gap, many chinese
users have misunderstood the meaning of "wikimania" as simply a short word
for "wikimedia conference" or "wikimedia meetup" instead of "INTERNATIONAL
wikimedia conference" (of wikimedia foundation). most of them were not aware
that "wikimania" is a brand name and should be a trademark for the
foundation.

the chinese name for the chinese conference "??????" can be more precisely
translated as "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia annual conference".
since the english name is seeked largely to serve international
attenders/readers, i think that suggestions/advice from international users
on the mailing list would probably be helpful and productive. if you have
comments, please kindly send it to the wikizh-l list at
wikizh-l at wikipedia.org.

(i personally still favor "chinese wikimedia conference" if authorized by
the foundation, which seems likely.)

the planning of the chinese conference is still in the early stage. it's not
clear how many would attend, but personally i would not be surprised by a
number between 20 and 100. it will be held on august 26-27 after wikimania
in boston.

roc (User:R.O.C)
--

? 2006/3/16?THD <theodoranian at gmail.com> ???
Post by THD
Hi, Ladies and all,
I am Theodoranian from zh.wikipedia. I went to Frankfurt last year, and
now I am thinking to go to Boston to join the 2006 wikimania.
I want to explain the "2006 Chinese wikimania" to you.
Actually, this annual conference is first-time-held this year, since
Zh.wikipedians from
China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and else places thought that there should be a
meetup.
The formal name of this meetup is "??????" in Chinese (which literally means
"Chinese Wikimedia Annual Conference"), and we don't have an appropriate
English
name for it yet. Now, we are still thinking what would be good. However,
somebody
translated the "CWAC" into English as "Chinese wikimania". There seems to be
a cultural
gap which misleads the translator to regard "Wiki-meetup" as "wikimania".
Just for your information.
Theodoanian
Post by Anthere
I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
I could not see the information in the news. Do you have any idea how
many people you could gather ?
ant
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia
conference"?
Post by THD
Post by Anthere
Post by R.O.C
just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the
world,
Post by R.O.C
not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
"china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia (along
with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
expressed interests to attend.
the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were
beijing,
Post by R.O.C
shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a
conference
Post by R.O.C
within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but
there
Post by R.O.C
is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
issued to mainland chinese.
-roc (User:R.O.C)
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
THD
2006-03-16 09:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi, Ladies and all,

I am Theodoranian from zh.wikipedia. I went to Frankfurt last year, and
now I am thinking to go to Boston to join the 2006 wikimania.

I want to explain the "2006 Chinese wikimania" to you.
Actually, this annual conference is first-time-held this year, since
Zh.wikipedians from
China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and else places thought that there should be a
meetup.

The formal name of this meetup is "??????" in Chinese (which literally means
"Chinese Wikimedia Annual Conference"), and we don't have an appropriate
English
name for it yet. Now, we are still thinking what would be good. However,
somebody
translated the "CWAC" into English as "Chinese wikimania". There seems to be
a cultural
gap which misleads the translator to regard "Wiki-meetup" as "wikimania".

Just for your information.

Theodoanian
Post by Anthere
I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
I could not see the information in the news. Do you have any idea how
many people you could gather ?
ant
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the
world,
Post by R.O.C
not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
"china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia(along
with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
expressed interests to attend.
the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were
beijing,
Post by R.O.C
shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a
conference
Post by R.O.C
within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but
there
Post by R.O.C
is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
issued to mainland chinese.
-roc (User:R.O.C)
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Angela
2006-03-16 08:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
That seems a better solution than using "Wikimania" for more than one
conference. I expect the Trademark Committee would be happy to grant
the rights for the use of "Wikimedia" in that context, though soufron
et al would need to confirm that.

Angela.
Anthere
2006-03-16 08:33:31 UTC
Permalink
I hope we'll also see some chinese in Boston as well :-)
I could not see the information in the news. Do you have any idea how
many people you could gather ?

ant
Post by R.O.C
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?
just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the world,
not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
"china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia (along
with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
expressed interests to attend.
the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were beijing,
shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a conference
within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but there
is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
issued to mainland chinese.
-roc (User:R.O.C)
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Anthere
2006-03-16 08:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
I agree. We are approaching people, sponsors and so, with the idea that
Wikimania is an ANNUAL INTERNATIONAL conference of our projects. And in
some texts, it also says it is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
It will be very confusing if many wikimanias are being organised per
year, some with 400 participants from many countries, others with 100
participants at a national level or why not even some wikimeet with 20
people. This will mean a wikimania is an meetup for some wiki users. No
more.

ant
R.O.C
2006-03-16 07:09:24 UTC
Permalink
what if using "wikimedia", for example. "chinese wikimedia conference"?

just to clarify that "chinese" here means ethnic chinese around the world,
not limited to the people's republic of china or mainland china, as what
"china" nowadays often refers to. a number of users of zh.wikipedia (along
with other wikimedia projects in chinese language) from mainland china,
taiwan, hong kong, malaysia, canada, united states, germany, etc. have
expressed interests to attend.

the chinese community decided to hold the conference in hong kong, which
enjoys convenient transportation and high degree of autonomy from the
central government in beijing. among other candidate cities were beijing,
shanghai, and taipei. blocking of wikipedia in PRC poses
concerns/difficulties for promoting wikimedia and organizing a conference
within mainland china. taipei has a highly devoted local community but there
is a difficulty also from politics that entry permits generally are not
issued to mainland chinese.

-roc (User:R.O.C)
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Anthere
2006-03-16 08:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
I agree. We are approaching people, sponsors and so, with the idea that
Wikimania is an ANNUAL INTERNATIONAL conference of our projects. And in
some texts, it also says it is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
It will be very confusing if many wikimanias are being organised per
year, some with 400 participants from many countries, others with 100
participants at a national level or why not even some wikimeet with 20
people. This will mean a wikimania is an meetup for some wiki users. No
more.

ant
Angela
2006-03-16 06:26:43 UTC
Permalink
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.

Angela.
SJ
2006-03-16 10:05:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick, Brad
News to me. I am especially interested in the (as far as I know)
unlicensed use of WMF copyright material. Did someone ask and I missed
it?
Is there a FAQ about this for the unenlightened? What classes of uses
require a license, and what classes do not? What's the right way to
get a license to use logos?

In the beginning there were Logos,
SJ
Sam Korn
2006-03-16 21:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by SJ
In the beginning there were Logos,
And the Logos were with Jimbo and the Logos were Jimbo?

--
Sam
Sam Korn
2006-03-16 21:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by SJ
In the beginning there were Logos,
And the Logos were with Jimbo and the Logos were Jimbo?

--
Sam
R.O.C
2006-03-16 06:21:09 UTC
Permalink
i was also wondering whether it is fit to use "wikimania" for local or
regional wikimedia conferences that are not organized directly by the
foundation. what's the position of the foundation about the use of
"wikimania"?

roc (User:R.O.C)
--
Post by Patrick, Brad
News to me. I am especially interested in the (as far as I know)
unlicensed use of WMF copyright material. Did someone ask and I missed
it?
And someone we know will probably have a fit re: design guidelines.
-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Erik Moeller
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:10 AM
To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikimania_2006_to_be_held_in_Hong_Ko
ng
Looks like a great effort. Is it official that there are now national
Wikimania conferences in addition to the international one?
Erik
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SJ
2006-03-16 10:05:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick, Brad
News to me. I am especially interested in the (as far as I know)
unlicensed use of WMF copyright material. Did someone ask and I missed
it?
Is there a FAQ about this for the unenlightened? What classes of uses
require a license, and what classes do not? What's the right way to
get a license to use logos?

In the beginning there were Logos,
SJ
W. Guy Finley
2006-03-16 13:39:35 UTC
Permalink
Personally I think you guys are overreacting a bit. When I sit down in a
few weeks and watch the College World Series, the Little League World Series
or the World Series of Poker for that matter I'm not suddenly surprised when
I don't see Major League Baseball teams there. Similarly they don't call it
"The Major League Baseball World Series", it's just the "World Series" and
everyone knows what THE World Series is just like I think people will know
what THE Wikimania is.

It pretty clearly is billed as "Chinese Wikimania" which to me implies, it's
well, er, Chinese -- not the world-wide Wikimania. Now, "Wikimania --
China 2006" might be confusing indicating that the world-wide Wikimania is
being held in China that year. I don't think "Chinese Wikimania" has that
effect nor would "Danish Wikimania" or "American Wikimania", etc.

Finally, as someone who has had my fill mediating China-related disputes on
EN if the greater China editors managed to get together and agree on meeting
in Hong Kong I think they could call it the World Series of Wikimania for
all I care because I think that act of getting all those different groups
together is far more important than whatever they call it.

--Guy (EN User: Wgfinley)
Post by Anthere
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
I agree. We are approaching people, sponsors and so, with the idea that
Wikimania is an ANNUAL INTERNATIONAL conference of our projects. And in
some texts, it also says it is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
It will be very confusing if many wikimanias are being organised per
year, some with 400 participants from many countries, others with 100
participants at a national level or why not even some wikimeet with 20
people. This will mean a wikimania is an meetup for some wiki users. No
more.
ant
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KJ
2006-03-16 14:18:44 UTC
Permalink
????????????????????

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????2006???????????????????????????????--???????--???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83

??????????????????????????????????????????????????

PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the reasons
why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.


--
KaurJmeb(KJ)
???????http://zh.wikipedia.org
KJ???????????http://www.wretch.cc/blog/kaurjmeb
???????~
Delphine Ménard
2006-03-16 14:27:43 UTC
Permalink
On 3/16/06, KJ <kaurjmeb at gmail.com> wrote:
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83
Post by KJ
??????????????????????????????????????????????????
PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the reasons
why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.
--
KaurJmeb(KJ)
???????http://zh.wikipedia.org
KJ???????????http://www.wretch.cc/blog/kaurjmeb
???????~
Just for the record. I'm French, I live in Germany, and I write here
in English. So language problems are not exactly something I am a
stranger to.

I am sorry if my email came across wrongly. I *am* in favour of a
Wikimedia Conference in China, as well as the existence of a local
chapter if anyone wants to launch one. I just wish that we could do
this *together*.

And yes, I am *damn* aware of the problems Chinese people may
encounter entering the United States. I am just concerned that knowing
they have a conference three weeks later, they won't bug *us* (the
FOundation) enough to make things change and allow them to participate
*also* in Boston.

Cheers,

Delphine

--
~notafish
Anthere
2006-03-16 17:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by KJ
????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????2006???????????????????????????????--???????--???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????????
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83
??????????????????????????????????????????????????
PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the reasons
why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.
--
KaurJmeb(KJ)
KJ... Absolutely no one questions the fact chinese editors want a
conference :-) It is *good* that your community is now big enough and
united enough to do one.
Our only worries are that there might be a confusion of names between
conferences (this has been cleared up) and that three meetings are done
nearly at the same time.

At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more
and more frequent as time.
Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German
editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several
meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as well
(in french)...
Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well.

Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem.
Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking.
In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste,
myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are
Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in
english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities
where many people do not speak english at all. French people generally
are *bad* in english. Those of us who can speak english can help bridge
between communities.

I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more
often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian
and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do the
same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-)

ant
R.O.C
2006-03-16 21:02:15 UTC
Permalink
it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to
address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i
would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the
chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had
been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with
the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark
without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are
misunderstandings.

i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my
user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not
participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i
would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese
and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.

1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch
with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia
project page (
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since
few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a
english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of
course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)

2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting
of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the
foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources,
neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is
not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in
english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an
administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it
until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until
yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the
chinese projects together with the foundation and the international
community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.

3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese
languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn
english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes
it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable
efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in
chinese.

4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects
mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining
small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant
messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to
meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion
of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently
addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international
conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these
separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a
local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need
for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of
wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all
difficulties.

5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after
discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
there were several considerations.

5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the
international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number
for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost
to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are
likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the
chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if
there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK
would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.

5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese
(probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service
might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese
conference will probably target largely on local or chinese
firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the
chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring
fund/resources.

5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so
that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned
from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually
expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.

5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese
conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it
convenient for both attendees and volunteers.

6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little
loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going
on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have
used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior
consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the
wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.

6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be
better organization and managements with regards to accountability.

6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese
organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists
for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I
have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture
gaps between the two parts of our community.

6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "??????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").

6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).

6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.

hope that this is helpful.

roc (User:R.O.C)
--

? 2006/3/16?Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> ???
Post by Anthere
Post by KJ
????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????2006???????????????????????????????--???????--???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Post by Anthere
Post by KJ
???????????????????????????????????
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83
Post by Anthere
Post by KJ
??????????????????????????????????????????????????
PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the reasons
why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.
--
KaurJmeb(KJ)
KJ... Absolutely no one questions the fact chinese editors want a
conference :-) It is *good* that your community is now big enough and
united enough to do one.
Our only worries are that there might be a confusion of names between
conferences (this has been cleared up) and that three meetings are done
nearly at the same time.
At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more
and more frequent as time.
Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German
editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several
meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as well
(in french)...
Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well.
Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem.
Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking.
In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste,
myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are
Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in
english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities
where many people do not speak english at all. French people generally
are *bad* in english. Those of us who can speak english can help bridge
between communities.
I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more
often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian
and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do the
same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-)
ant
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Jakob Voss
2006-03-17 00:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.O.C
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "??????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
Is it

chinese language wikipedia annual conference
or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
or chinese language wiki annual conference ?

I don't know any Chinese but reading the interwikilinks there is:

Wiki: ??
Wikipedia: ????
Wikimedia: ????
Wikimania: ????????

IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
problem with the English translation:

???? is not "Wikimania" but just call it

"Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
official and will keep this discussion going on.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
???? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So ???? is
not Wikimania.

Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / ???)

1. Assume ???? is Wikimania
2. Then ???? is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
3. But ???? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation

I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
philosophy ;-)
Post by R.O.C
hope that this is helpful.
Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not easy
to understand from the european point of view :-)

Greetings,
Jakob

P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just using
interwiki links :-)
Andrew Lih
2006-03-17 00:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

I apologize for not being able to jump in earlier to bridge the gap
between ZH users and the rest, since I've been done much of that in
the past. (I'm in the process of moving up to Beijing, so I've not
even been neglecting the mailing lists.)

Here's some observations:

- Hong Kong is an ideal location for the conference for now, since
it's accessible from Taiwan, PRC, Malaysia and Singapore, and there is
complete freedom of speech here.
- The name, if translated literally, for "?????S??????" (zhong wen wei ji
nian hui) means "Chinese (language) Wiki Annual Meeting"
- I agree it's better not to use "Wikimania," as it's confusing
internally, and even moreso to outsiders. It's not Wikimania East or
Wikimania equivalent for the other side of the world. I would suggest
Chinese Wikimedia Conference or something of the like.
- Apologies again to many Taiwan, HK and PRC users who have contacted
me in the last few weeks for planning help, but have not had the time
to do so. After March 20, I will have more time to lend a hand.

-Andrew
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "???????S????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
Is it
chinese language wikipedia annual conference
or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
or chinese language wiki annual conference ?
Wiki: ?S??
Wikipedia: ????????
Wikimedia: ?S?????w
Wikimania: ?S?????w???H????
IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
?S?????? is not "Wikimania" but just call it
"Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
official and will keep this discussion going on.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So ?S?????? is
not Wikimania.
Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / ???C??)
1. Assume ?S?????? is Wikimania
2. Then ?S?????? is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
3. But ?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
philosophy ;-)
Post by R.O.C
hope that this is helpful.
Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not easy
to understand from the european point of view :-)
Greetings,
Jakob
P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just using
interwiki links :-)
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
SJ
2006-03-17 03:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the observations (hmm, a wiki annual meeting... we
shouldn't forget that for most people, 'wiki' means Wikipedia). Good
luck with your move!

--SJ

PS - Jakob: you're right about the magic of interwiki links...
Post by Andrew Lih
Hi all,
I apologize for not being able to jump in earlier to bridge the gap
between ZH users and the rest, since I've been done much of that in
the past. (I'm in the process of moving up to Beijing, so I've not
even been neglecting the mailing lists.)
- Hong Kong is an ideal location for the conference for now, since
it's accessible from Taiwan, PRC, Malaysia and Singapore, and there is
complete freedom of speech here.
- The name, if translated literally, for "?????S??????" (zhong wen wei ji
nian hui) means "Chinese (language) Wiki Annual Meeting"
- I agree it's better not to use "Wikimania," as it's confusing
internally, and even moreso to outsiders. It's not Wikimania East or
Wikimania equivalent for the other side of the world. I would suggest
Chinese Wikimedia Conference or something of the like.
- Apologies again to many Taiwan, HK and PRC users who have contacted
me in the last few weeks for planning help, but have not had the time
to do so. After March 20, I will have more time to lend a hand.
-Andrew
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "???????S????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
Is it
chinese language wikipedia annual conference
or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
or chinese language wiki annual conference ?
Wiki: ?S??
Wikipedia: ????????
Wikimedia: ?S?????w
Wikimania: ?S?????w???H????
IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
?S?????? is not "Wikimania" but just call it
"Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
official and will keep this discussion going on.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So ?S?????? is
not Wikimania.
Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / ???C??)
1. Assume ?S?????? is Wikimania
2. Then ?S?????? is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
3. But ?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
philosophy ;-)
Post by R.O.C
hope that this is helpful.
Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not easy
to understand from the european point of view :-)
Greetings,
Jakob
P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just using
interwiki links :-)
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
--
++SJ
R.O.C
2006-03-17 04:37:16 UTC
Permalink
thank you very much for those friendly and supportive messages. it is great
to learn about WCN, which i think has similar goals as the chinese
conference. i think that these events are helpful, constructive, and
beneficial, and i believe that all the three conferences will be blessed.

regarding the chinese name, i see a similar case here in which "????" might
have been misunderstood. "????" is not and shall not be called "wikimania".
to put long explanations/reasons about the two languages short, here is the
cheat sheet:

"wikimania" = "????????" (literally, "wikimedia international conference")
or if it'll be held annually "????????" (literally, "wikimedia international
annual conference")

"wiki" = "??" (similar pronunciation with "??", literally "order and
organized by (working) together") or "??"

"??" functions as an adjective or defining noun, meaning any project
sponsored by wikimedia foundation, it is also used informally as a short
form of "????" (wikipedia) or "??????" (chinese wikipedia). several chinese
users have warned that "??" need to be treated as a trading name for
projects of wikimedia, and "wiki" should not be translated as "??" (use "??"
instead). the interwiki link in en.wikipedia seems misplaced.

"wikimedia" = "????"

"wikipedia" = "????"

that being said, the "??" in the name of chinese conference "??????" means
both wikipedia and wikimedia.

the reason why "chinese wikipedia conference" or "chinese wikipedian
conference" is disfavored is that, there are chinese projects on wikisource,
wikibooks, wikiquotes, wikitionary, wikispecies, and the recently opened
(yeah~~) wikinews. the conference will not limit topics on chinese
wikipedia, and contributors of the other projects are anticipated at the
conference, so they should be respected.

roc
--
Post by SJ
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the observations (hmm, a wiki annual meeting... we
shouldn't forget that for most people, 'wiki' means Wikipedia). Good
luck with your move!
--SJ
PS - Jakob: you're right about the magic of interwiki links...
Post by Andrew Lih
Hi all,
I apologize for not being able to jump in earlier to bridge the gap
between ZH users and the rest, since I've been done much of that in
the past. (I'm in the process of moving up to Beijing, so I've not
even been neglecting the mailing lists.)
- Hong Kong is an ideal location for the conference for now, since
it's accessible from Taiwan, PRC, Malaysia and Singapore, and there is
complete freedom of speech here.
- The name, if translated literally, for "??????" (zhong wen wei ji
nian hui) means "Chinese (language) Wiki Annual Meeting"
- I agree it's better not to use "Wikimania," as it's confusing
internally, and even moreso to outsiders. It's not Wikimania East or
Wikimania equivalent for the other side of the world. I would suggest
Chinese Wikimedia Conference or something of the like.
- Apologies again to many Taiwan, HK and PRC users who have contacted
me in the last few weeks for planning help, but have not had the time
to do so. After March 20, I will have more time to lend a hand.
-Andrew
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english
translation for
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation
policies. the
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization
for using
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the
chinese
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
conference is "??????" (literally, "chinese language
wikipedia/wikimedia
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
annual conference").
Is it
chinese language wikipedia annual conference
or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
or chinese language wiki annual conference ?
Wiki: ??
Wikipedia: ????
Wikimedia: ????
Wikimania: ????????
IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
???? is not "Wikimania" but just call it
"Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference"
and would
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the
foundation
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving
chinese
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
official and will keep this discussion going on.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of
"wikimania" had
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is
supposed to
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at
zh.wikipedia that
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international
wikimedia
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a
trading name
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia
Foundation.
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
???? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So ???? is
not Wikimania.
Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / ???)
1. Assume ???? is Wikimania
2. Then ???? is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
3. But ???? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
philosophy ;-)
Post by R.O.C
hope that this is helpful.
Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not
easy
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
to understand from the european point of view :-)
Greetings,
Jakob
P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just
using
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
interwiki links :-)
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
--
++SJ
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Aphaia
2006-03-17 08:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Congrats for Chinewe Wikimedian meeting, you rock
I hope it gets another adjective soon, for instance, annual ... as for
Chinese name, it looks to me (a Japanese speaker who knows hanji a
bit) quite nice and not confusable with Wikimania.

Please let me make clear one point; all participants and programs are
now planned in Chinese? The reason why I'm interested in that is, I
suppose, if there is one track in English (pardonnez vous cheres
francophones, mais c'est un seul example ...) or any other language,
neighbor countries' Wikipedians, like Korea or Japan, will be also
stimulated to attend, though already there are some bunch of people
who are capable in Chinese :-)

Cheers,





--
Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com
R.O.C
2006-03-17 19:33:40 UTC
Permalink
thank you for your blessing and especially important the clarification
from a non-chinese who understand ??/hanzi/kanji/hanja/h?nt? (the
characters used in these languages). i appreciate it very much!

as for the conference, i am very confident that it will be conducted
in a chinese language (probably mandarin), although interpreting
services may be offered if needed and able. it is also clear that the
scope of the conference is limited to discussions on chinese projects
of wikimedia (no politics, no projects specific to other languages).

as for attendees from non-chinese speaking population or those living
outside of chinese areas, i have talked to the organizers of the
chinese conference and we have the same position:

1) people will not be turned away at the door (exept if deemed
disruptive or dangerous), however, the working language and the scope
of conference is emphasised, and we encourage people to explore and
attend the wikimania in boston, which is probably more suitble,
helpful, educational, stimulating, entertaining, etc, for general
wikmedia contributors/researchers.

2) people who are interested in chinese projects of wikimedia should
be all welcome to attend, whether he/she is a contributor or not of
chinese (or any) projects of wikimedia. the goal is to help chinese
projects of wikimedia to grow better, keep healthy, reach more, and so
on.

please accept my personal gratitudes for all those who are helpful and
respectful to our efforts.

roc
--
Post by Aphaia
Congrats for Chinewe Wikimedian meeting, you rock
I hope it gets another adjective soon, for instance, annual ... as for
Chinese name, it looks to me (a Japanese speaker who knows hanji a
bit) quite nice and not confusable with Wikimania.
Please let me make clear one point; all participants and programs are
now planned in Chinese? The reason why I'm interested in that is, I
suppose, if there is one track in English (pardonnez vous cheres
francophones, mais c'est un seul example ...) or any other language,
neighbor countries' Wikipedians, like Korea or Japan, will be also
stimulated to attend, though already there are some bunch of people
who are capable in Chinese :-)
Cheers,
--
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Delphine Ménard
2006-03-18 12:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.O.C
please accept my personal gratitudes for all those who are helpful and
respectful to our efforts.
Thank you. You're precious.

Delphine
--
~notafish
Delphine Ménard
2006-03-18 12:24:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.O.C
please accept my personal gratitudes for all those who are helpful and
respectful to our efforts.
Thank you. You're precious.

Delphine
--
~notafish
R.O.C
2006-03-17 19:33:40 UTC
Permalink
thank you for your blessing and especially important the clarification
from a non-chinese who understand ??/hanzi/kanji/hanja/h?nt? (the
characters used in these languages). i appreciate it very much!

as for the conference, i am very confident that it will be conducted
in a chinese language (probably mandarin), although interpreting
services may be offered if needed and able. it is also clear that the
scope of the conference is limited to discussions on chinese projects
of wikimedia (no politics, no projects specific to other languages).

as for attendees from non-chinese speaking population or those living
outside of chinese areas, i have talked to the organizers of the
chinese conference and we have the same position:

1) people will not be turned away at the door (exept if deemed
disruptive or dangerous), however, the working language and the scope
of conference is emphasised, and we encourage people to explore and
attend the wikimania in boston, which is probably more suitble,
helpful, educational, stimulating, entertaining, etc, for general
wikmedia contributors/researchers.

2) people who are interested in chinese projects of wikimedia should
be all welcome to attend, whether he/she is a contributor or not of
chinese (or any) projects of wikimedia. the goal is to help chinese
projects of wikimedia to grow better, keep healthy, reach more, and so
on.

please accept my personal gratitudes for all those who are helpful and
respectful to our efforts.

roc
--
Post by Aphaia
Congrats for Chinewe Wikimedian meeting, you rock
I hope it gets another adjective soon, for instance, annual ... as for
Chinese name, it looks to me (a Japanese speaker who knows hanji a
bit) quite nice and not confusable with Wikimania.
Please let me make clear one point; all participants and programs are
now planned in Chinese? The reason why I'm interested in that is, I
suppose, if there is one track in English (pardonnez vous cheres
francophones, mais c'est un seul example ...) or any other language,
neighbor countries' Wikipedians, like Korea or Japan, will be also
stimulated to attend, though already there are some bunch of people
who are capable in Chinese :-)
Cheers,
--
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Aphaia
2006-03-17 08:22:41 UTC
Permalink
Congrats for Chinewe Wikimedian meeting, you rock
I hope it gets another adjective soon, for instance, annual ... as for
Chinese name, it looks to me (a Japanese speaker who knows hanji a
bit) quite nice and not confusable with Wikimania.

Please let me make clear one point; all participants and programs are
now planned in Chinese? The reason why I'm interested in that is, I
suppose, if there is one track in English (pardonnez vous cheres
francophones, mais c'est un seul example ...) or any other language,
neighbor countries' Wikipedians, like Korea or Japan, will be also
stimulated to attend, though already there are some bunch of people
who are capable in Chinese :-)

Cheers,





--
Aphaea@*.wikipedia.org
email: Aphaia @ gmail (dot) com
R.O.C
2006-03-17 04:37:16 UTC
Permalink
thank you very much for those friendly and supportive messages. it is great
to learn about WCN, which i think has similar goals as the chinese
conference. i think that these events are helpful, constructive, and
beneficial, and i believe that all the three conferences will be blessed.

regarding the chinese name, i see a similar case here in which "????" might
have been misunderstood. "????" is not and shall not be called "wikimania".
to put long explanations/reasons about the two languages short, here is the
cheat sheet:

"wikimania" = "????????" (literally, "wikimedia international conference")
or if it'll be held annually "????????" (literally, "wikimedia international
annual conference")

"wiki" = "??" (similar pronunciation with "??", literally "order and
organized by (working) together") or "??"

"??" functions as an adjective or defining noun, meaning any project
sponsored by wikimedia foundation, it is also used informally as a short
form of "????" (wikipedia) or "??????" (chinese wikipedia). several chinese
users have warned that "??" need to be treated as a trading name for
projects of wikimedia, and "wiki" should not be translated as "??" (use "??"
instead). the interwiki link in en.wikipedia seems misplaced.

"wikimedia" = "????"

"wikipedia" = "????"

that being said, the "??" in the name of chinese conference "??????" means
both wikipedia and wikimedia.

the reason why "chinese wikipedia conference" or "chinese wikipedian
conference" is disfavored is that, there are chinese projects on wikisource,
wikibooks, wikiquotes, wikitionary, wikispecies, and the recently opened
(yeah~~) wikinews. the conference will not limit topics on chinese
wikipedia, and contributors of the other projects are anticipated at the
conference, so they should be respected.

roc
--
Post by SJ
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the observations (hmm, a wiki annual meeting... we
shouldn't forget that for most people, 'wiki' means Wikipedia). Good
luck with your move!
--SJ
PS - Jakob: you're right about the magic of interwiki links...
Post by Andrew Lih
Hi all,
I apologize for not being able to jump in earlier to bridge the gap
between ZH users and the rest, since I've been done much of that in
the past. (I'm in the process of moving up to Beijing, so I've not
even been neglecting the mailing lists.)
- Hong Kong is an ideal location for the conference for now, since
it's accessible from Taiwan, PRC, Malaysia and Singapore, and there is
complete freedom of speech here.
- The name, if translated literally, for "??????" (zhong wen wei ji
nian hui) means "Chinese (language) Wiki Annual Meeting"
- I agree it's better not to use "Wikimania," as it's confusing
internally, and even moreso to outsiders. It's not Wikimania East or
Wikimania equivalent for the other side of the world. I would suggest
Chinese Wikimedia Conference or something of the like.
- Apologies again to many Taiwan, HK and PRC users who have contacted
me in the last few weeks for planning help, but have not had the time
to do so. After March 20, I will have more time to lend a hand.
-Andrew
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english
translation for
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation
policies. the
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization
for using
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the
chinese
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
conference is "??????" (literally, "chinese language
wikipedia/wikimedia
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
annual conference").
Is it
chinese language wikipedia annual conference
or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
or chinese language wiki annual conference ?
Wiki: ??
Wikipedia: ????
Wikimedia: ????
Wikimania: ????????
IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
???? is not "Wikimania" but just call it
"Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference"
and would
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the
foundation
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving
chinese
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
official and will keep this discussion going on.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of
"wikimania" had
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is
supposed to
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at
zh.wikipedia that
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international
wikimedia
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a
trading name
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia
Foundation.
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
???? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So ???? is
not Wikimania.
Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / ???)
1. Assume ???? is Wikimania
2. Then ???? is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
3. But ???? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
philosophy ;-)
Post by R.O.C
hope that this is helpful.
Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not
easy
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
to understand from the european point of view :-)
Greetings,
Jakob
P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just
using
Post by Andrew Lih
Post by Jakob Voss
interwiki links :-)
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
--
++SJ
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
SJ
2006-03-17 03:20:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the observations (hmm, a wiki annual meeting... we
shouldn't forget that for most people, 'wiki' means Wikipedia). Good
luck with your move!

--SJ

PS - Jakob: you're right about the magic of interwiki links...
Post by Andrew Lih
Hi all,
I apologize for not being able to jump in earlier to bridge the gap
between ZH users and the rest, since I've been done much of that in
the past. (I'm in the process of moving up to Beijing, so I've not
even been neglecting the mailing lists.)
- Hong Kong is an ideal location for the conference for now, since
it's accessible from Taiwan, PRC, Malaysia and Singapore, and there is
complete freedom of speech here.
- The name, if translated literally, for "?????S??????" (zhong wen wei ji
nian hui) means "Chinese (language) Wiki Annual Meeting"
- I agree it's better not to use "Wikimania," as it's confusing
internally, and even moreso to outsiders. It's not Wikimania East or
Wikimania equivalent for the other side of the world. I would suggest
Chinese Wikimedia Conference or something of the like.
- Apologies again to many Taiwan, HK and PRC users who have contacted
me in the last few weeks for planning help, but have not had the time
to do so. After March 20, I will have more time to lend a hand.
-Andrew
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "???????S????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
Is it
chinese language wikipedia annual conference
or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
or chinese language wiki annual conference ?
Wiki: ?S??
Wikipedia: ????????
Wikimedia: ?S?????w
Wikimania: ?S?????w???H????
IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
?S?????? is not "Wikimania" but just call it
"Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
official and will keep this discussion going on.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So ?S?????? is
not Wikimania.
Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / ???C??)
1. Assume ?S?????? is Wikimania
2. Then ?S?????? is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
3. But ?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
philosophy ;-)
Post by R.O.C
hope that this is helpful.
Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not easy
to understand from the european point of view :-)
Greetings,
Jakob
P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just using
interwiki links :-)
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
--
++SJ
Andrew Lih
2006-03-17 00:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

I apologize for not being able to jump in earlier to bridge the gap
between ZH users and the rest, since I've been done much of that in
the past. (I'm in the process of moving up to Beijing, so I've not
even been neglecting the mailing lists.)

Here's some observations:

- Hong Kong is an ideal location for the conference for now, since
it's accessible from Taiwan, PRC, Malaysia and Singapore, and there is
complete freedom of speech here.
- The name, if translated literally, for "?????S??????" (zhong wen wei ji
nian hui) means "Chinese (language) Wiki Annual Meeting"
- I agree it's better not to use "Wikimania," as it's confusing
internally, and even moreso to outsiders. It's not Wikimania East or
Wikimania equivalent for the other side of the world. I would suggest
Chinese Wikimedia Conference or something of the like.
- Apologies again to many Taiwan, HK and PRC users who have contacted
me in the last few weeks for planning help, but have not had the time
to do so. After March 20, I will have more time to lend a hand.

-Andrew
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "???????S????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
Is it
chinese language wikipedia annual conference
or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
or chinese language wiki annual conference ?
Wiki: ?S??
Wikipedia: ????????
Wikimedia: ?S?????w
Wikimania: ?S?????w???H????
IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
?S?????? is not "Wikimania" but just call it
"Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
official and will keep this discussion going on.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So ?S?????? is
not Wikimania.
Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / ???C??)
1. Assume ?S?????? is Wikimania
2. Then ?S?????? is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
3. But ?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
philosophy ;-)
Post by R.O.C
hope that this is helpful.
Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not easy
to understand from the european point of view :-)
Greetings,
Jakob
P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just using
interwiki links :-)
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Andrew Lih
2006-03-17 00:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

I apologize for not being able to jump in earlier to bridge the gap
between ZH users and the rest, since I've been done much of that in
the past. (I'm in the process of moving up to Beijing, so I've not
even been neglecting the mailing lists.)

Here's some observations:

- Hong Kong is an ideal location for the conference for now, since
it's accessible from Taiwan, PRC, Malaysia and Singapore, and there is
complete freedom of speech here.
- The name, if translated literally, for "?????S??????" (zhong wen wei ji
nian hui) means "Chinese (language) Wiki Annual Meeting"
- I agree it's better not to use "Wikimania," as it's confusing
internally, and even moreso to outsiders. It's not Wikimania East or
Wikimania equivalent for the other side of the world. I would suggest
Chinese Wikimedia Conference or something of the like.
- Apologies again to many Taiwan, HK and PRC users who have contacted
me in the last few weeks for planning help, but have not had the time
to do so. After March 20, I will have more time to lend a hand.

-Andrew
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "???????S????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
Is it
chinese language wikipedia annual conference
or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
or chinese language wiki annual conference ?
Wiki: ?S??
Wikipedia: ????????
Wikimedia: ?S?????w
Wikimania: ?S?????w???H????
IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
?S?????? is not "Wikimania" but just call it
"Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
official and will keep this discussion going on.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So ?S?????? is
not Wikimania.
Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / ???C??)
1. Assume ?S?????? is Wikimania
2. Then ?S?????? is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
3. But ?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
philosophy ;-)
Post by R.O.C
hope that this is helpful.
Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not easy
to understand from the european point of view :-)
Greetings,
Jakob
P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just using
interwiki links :-)
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Andrew Lih
2006-03-17 00:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

I apologize for not being able to jump in earlier to bridge the gap
between ZH users and the rest, since I've been done much of that in
the past. (I'm in the process of moving up to Beijing, so I've not
even been neglecting the mailing lists.)

Here's some observations:

- Hong Kong is an ideal location for the conference for now, since
it's accessible from Taiwan, PRC, Malaysia and Singapore, and there is
complete freedom of speech here.
- The name, if translated literally, for "?????S??????" (zhong wen wei ji
nian hui) means "Chinese (language) Wiki Annual Meeting"
- I agree it's better not to use "Wikimania," as it's confusing
internally, and even moreso to outsiders. It's not Wikimania East or
Wikimania equivalent for the other side of the world. I would suggest
Chinese Wikimedia Conference or something of the like.
- Apologies again to many Taiwan, HK and PRC users who have contacted
me in the last few weeks for planning help, but have not had the time
to do so. After March 20, I will have more time to lend a hand.

-Andrew
Post by Jakob Voss
Post by R.O.C
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "???????S????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
Is it
chinese language wikipedia annual conference
or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
or chinese language wiki annual conference ?
Wiki: ?S??
Wikipedia: ????????
Wikimedia: ?S?????w
Wikimania: ?S?????w???H????
IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
?S?????? is not "Wikimania" but just call it
"Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
official and will keep this discussion going on.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So ?S?????? is
not Wikimania.
Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / ???C??)
1. Assume ?S?????? is Wikimania
2. Then ?S?????? is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
3. But ?S?????? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
philosophy ;-)
Post by R.O.C
hope that this is helpful.
Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not easy
to understand from the european point of view :-)
Greetings,
Jakob
P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just using
interwiki links :-)
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Anthere
2006-03-17 11:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Hello ROC

Thanks for the detailed answer. I appreciate it.
Just a couple of points
Post by R.O.C
it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to
address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i
would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the
chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had
been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with
the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark
without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are
misunderstandings.
i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my
user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not
participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i
would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese
and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.
1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch
with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia
project page (
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since
few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a
english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of
course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)
thanks
Post by R.O.C
2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting
of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the
foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources,
neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is
not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in
english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an
administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it
until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until
yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the
chinese projects together with the foundation and the international
community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.
please, advertise this list as well as meta. Also, we have a nice team
of people working on all Wikimedia related topics, but most of this team
is from Europe/USA/Canada. Little by little we get more people from
South America as well. However, we still lack input from Africans and
from people from the East. If some of you participate here from time to
time, or on meta or come join irc #wikimedia channel, we should get to
know each other better.
Post by R.O.C
3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese
languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn
english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes
it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable
efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in
chinese.
Well, your english appears quite good to me :-) at least, I understand
it... better than some americans :-)
Post by R.O.C
4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects
mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining
small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant
messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to
meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion
of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently
addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international
conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these
separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a
local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need
for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of
wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all
difficulties.
5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after
discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
there were several considerations.
5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the
international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number
for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost
to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are
likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the
chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if
there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK
would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.
Which suggest me that it could be a good idea to find some sponsors to
help support costs for some chinese to come at Boston Wikimania.
Post by R.O.C
5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese
(probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service
might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese
conference will probably target largely on local or chinese
firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the
chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring
fund/resources.
5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so
that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned
from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually
expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.
5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese
conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it
convenient for both attendees and volunteers.
6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little
loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going
on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have
used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior
consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the
wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.
6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be
better organization and managements with regards to accountability.
6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese
organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists
for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I
have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture
gaps between the two parts of our community.
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "??????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
I rather think the "chinese language wikimedia conference" would be
best. It allows to have several meeting in the same year :-) and it
involves editors from all projects, not wikipedia only.
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
As far as I am concerned, the use of wikimedia name is okay.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
hope that this is helpful.
Yes.
Very helpful.

Thanks ROC

Anthere
Post by R.O.C
roc (User:R.O.C)
R.O.C
2006-03-17 20:01:57 UTC
Permalink
anthere, thank you very much for the comments. meanwhile, i am
preparing a letter requesting for permission to use the foundation's
trademark for the conference and will email to relevant committees and
internal-l shortly.

ya, although there are lots of active chinese contributors (japanese
too i believe), i think that the language is really an obstacle for
most east asian people. user:theodoranian (aka, THD in this thread) is
probably one in zh.wikipedia i know with the best english skill, but
even he confessed that he sometimes has trouble understanding
questions or finding words to answer questions when he was in
frankfurt (sorry~~, thd). of course, his written english is good. i am
sure there are a number of chinese contributors with good english, and
the recent discussions here on the list about the chinese conference
have promoted the list among chinese contributors. i hope that there
will be more chinese participants here and on meta and irc.

thanks! i'm living in new york, where i have to use english everyday,
so that is why. 8-) i'll probably go to boston this year (it's so
near) and hopefully meet you guys.

emm, that's a great idea! i think that it will be very helpful, both
to the chinese contributors and the foundation. i believe that it will
be very productive if personal meetings are held between foundation
people and people from mainland china, taiwan, hong kong, etc, as what
have been for european people. i also believe that people from east
asian projects can bring more insights/input to the wikimania.

best,

roc
--
Post by Anthere
Hello ROC
Thanks for the detailed answer. I appreciate it.
Just a couple of points
Post by R.O.C
it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to
address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i
would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the
chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had
been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with
the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark
without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are
misunderstandings.
i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my
user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not
participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i
would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese
and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.
1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch
with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia
project page (
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since
few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a
english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of
course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)
thanks
Post by R.O.C
2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting
of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the
foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources,
neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is
not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in
english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an
administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it
until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until
yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the
chinese projects together with the foundation and the international
community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.
please, advertise this list as well as meta. Also, we have a nice team
of people working on all Wikimedia related topics, but most of this team
is from Europe/USA/Canada. Little by little we get more people from
South America as well. However, we still lack input from Africans and
from people from the East. If some of you participate here from time to
time, or on meta or come join irc #wikimedia channel, we should get to
know each other better.
Post by R.O.C
3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese
languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn
english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes
it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable
efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in
chinese.
Well, your english appears quite good to me :-) at least, I understand
it... better than some americans :-)
Post by R.O.C
4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects
mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining
small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant
messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to
meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion
of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently
addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international
conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these
separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a
local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need
for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of
wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all
difficulties.
5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after
discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
there were several considerations.
5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the
international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number
for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost
to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are
likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the
chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if
there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK
would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.
Which suggest me that it could be a good idea to find some sponsors to
help support costs for some chinese to come at Boston Wikimania.
Post by R.O.C
5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese
(probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service
might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese
conference will probably target largely on local or chinese
firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the
chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring
fund/resources.
5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so
that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned
from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually
expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.
5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese
conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it
convenient for both attendees and volunteers.
6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little
loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going
on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have
used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior
consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the
wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.
6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be
better organization and managements with regards to accountability.
6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese
organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists
for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I
have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture
gaps between the two parts of our community.
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "??????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
I rather think the "chinese language wikimedia conference" would be
best. It allows to have several meeting in the same year :-) and it
involves editors from all projects, not wikipedia only.
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
As far as I am concerned, the use of wikimedia name is okay.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
hope that this is helpful.
Yes.
Very helpful.
Thanks ROC
Anthere
Post by R.O.C
roc (User:R.O.C)
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
THD
2006-03-18 17:32:43 UTC
Permalink
Haha....ROC you just praised me too much. I can't express myself as clear as
you do, and I don't think my english skill is good. No matter what, I think
we need more communication with the Foundation and here. I hope it's not too
hard for people here to understand what I said.

Theodoranian
Post by R.O.C
anthere, thank you very much for the comments. meanwhile, i am
preparing a letter requesting for permission to use the foundation's
trademark for the conference and will email to relevant committees and
internal-l shortly.
ya, although there are lots of active chinese contributors (japanese
too i believe), i think that the language is really an obstacle for
most east asian people. user:theodoranian (aka, THD in this thread) is
probably one in zh.wikipedia i know with the best english skill, but
even he confessed that he sometimes has trouble understanding
questions or finding words to answer questions when he was in
frankfurt (sorry~~, thd). of course, his written english is good. i am
sure there are a number of chinese contributors with good english, and
the recent discussions here on the list about the chinese conference
have promoted the list among chinese contributors. i hope that there
will be more chinese participants here and on meta and irc.
thanks! i'm living in new york, where i have to use english everyday,
so that is why. 8-) i'll probably go to boston this year (it's so
near) and hopefully meet you guys.
emm, that's a great idea! i think that it will be very helpful, both
to the chinese contributors and the foundation. i believe that it will
be very productive if personal meetings are held between foundation
people and people from mainland china, taiwan, hong kong, etc, as what
have been for european people. i also believe that people from east
asian projects can bring more insights/input to the wikimania.
best,
roc
--
THD
2006-03-18 17:32:43 UTC
Permalink
Haha....ROC you just praised me too much. I can't express myself as clear as
you do, and I don't think my english skill is good. No matter what, I think
we need more communication with the Foundation and here. I hope it's not too
hard for people here to understand what I said.

Theodoranian
Post by R.O.C
anthere, thank you very much for the comments. meanwhile, i am
preparing a letter requesting for permission to use the foundation's
trademark for the conference and will email to relevant committees and
internal-l shortly.
ya, although there are lots of active chinese contributors (japanese
too i believe), i think that the language is really an obstacle for
most east asian people. user:theodoranian (aka, THD in this thread) is
probably one in zh.wikipedia i know with the best english skill, but
even he confessed that he sometimes has trouble understanding
questions or finding words to answer questions when he was in
frankfurt (sorry~~, thd). of course, his written english is good. i am
sure there are a number of chinese contributors with good english, and
the recent discussions here on the list about the chinese conference
have promoted the list among chinese contributors. i hope that there
will be more chinese participants here and on meta and irc.
thanks! i'm living in new york, where i have to use english everyday,
so that is why. 8-) i'll probably go to boston this year (it's so
near) and hopefully meet you guys.
emm, that's a great idea! i think that it will be very helpful, both
to the chinese contributors and the foundation. i believe that it will
be very productive if personal meetings are held between foundation
people and people from mainland china, taiwan, hong kong, etc, as what
have been for european people. i also believe that people from east
asian projects can bring more insights/input to the wikimania.
best,
roc
--
R.O.C
2006-03-17 20:01:57 UTC
Permalink
anthere, thank you very much for the comments. meanwhile, i am
preparing a letter requesting for permission to use the foundation's
trademark for the conference and will email to relevant committees and
internal-l shortly.

ya, although there are lots of active chinese contributors (japanese
too i believe), i think that the language is really an obstacle for
most east asian people. user:theodoranian (aka, THD in this thread) is
probably one in zh.wikipedia i know with the best english skill, but
even he confessed that he sometimes has trouble understanding
questions or finding words to answer questions when he was in
frankfurt (sorry~~, thd). of course, his written english is good. i am
sure there are a number of chinese contributors with good english, and
the recent discussions here on the list about the chinese conference
have promoted the list among chinese contributors. i hope that there
will be more chinese participants here and on meta and irc.

thanks! i'm living in new york, where i have to use english everyday,
so that is why. 8-) i'll probably go to boston this year (it's so
near) and hopefully meet you guys.

emm, that's a great idea! i think that it will be very helpful, both
to the chinese contributors and the foundation. i believe that it will
be very productive if personal meetings are held between foundation
people and people from mainland china, taiwan, hong kong, etc, as what
have been for european people. i also believe that people from east
asian projects can bring more insights/input to the wikimania.

best,

roc
--
Post by Anthere
Hello ROC
Thanks for the detailed answer. I appreciate it.
Just a couple of points
Post by R.O.C
it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to
address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i
would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the
chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had
been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with
the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark
without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are
misunderstandings.
i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my
user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not
participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i
would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese
and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.
1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch
with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia
project page (
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since
few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a
english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of
course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)
thanks
Post by R.O.C
2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting
of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the
foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources,
neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is
not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in
english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an
administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it
until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until
yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the
chinese projects together with the foundation and the international
community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.
please, advertise this list as well as meta. Also, we have a nice team
of people working on all Wikimedia related topics, but most of this team
is from Europe/USA/Canada. Little by little we get more people from
South America as well. However, we still lack input from Africans and
from people from the East. If some of you participate here from time to
time, or on meta or come join irc #wikimedia channel, we should get to
know each other better.
Post by R.O.C
3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese
languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn
english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes
it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable
efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in
chinese.
Well, your english appears quite good to me :-) at least, I understand
it... better than some americans :-)
Post by R.O.C
4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects
mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining
small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant
messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to
meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion
of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently
addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international
conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these
separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a
local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need
for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of
wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all
difficulties.
5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after
discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
there were several considerations.
5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the
international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number
for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost
to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are
likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the
chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if
there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK
would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.
Which suggest me that it could be a good idea to find some sponsors to
help support costs for some chinese to come at Boston Wikimania.
Post by R.O.C
5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese
(probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service
might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese
conference will probably target largely on local or chinese
firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the
chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring
fund/resources.
5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so
that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned
from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually
expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.
5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese
conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it
convenient for both attendees and volunteers.
6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little
loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going
on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have
used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior
consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the
wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.
6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be
better organization and managements with regards to accountability.
6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese
organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists
for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I
have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture
gaps between the two parts of our community.
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "??????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
I rather think the "chinese language wikimedia conference" would be
best. It allows to have several meeting in the same year :-) and it
involves editors from all projects, not wikipedia only.
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
As far as I am concerned, the use of wikimedia name is okay.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
hope that this is helpful.
Yes.
Very helpful.
Thanks ROC
Anthere
Post by R.O.C
roc (User:R.O.C)
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Jakob Voss
2006-03-17 00:10:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by R.O.C
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "??????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
Is it

chinese language wikipedia annual conference
or chinese language wikimedia annual conference
or chinese language wiki annual conference ?

I don't know any Chinese but reading the interwikilinks there is:

Wiki: ??
Wikipedia: ????
Wikimedia: ????
Wikimania: ????????

IMHO you can create any names you want in Chinese - there is only a
problem with the English translation:

???? is not "Wikimania" but just call it

"Chinese Wikipedia Conference" or "Chinese Wikimedia Conference".
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
Since there is no local Wikimedia chapter you better call it "Chinese
Wikipedia Conference" because it's probably mostly about Wikipedia and
you will have less problems with the name. "Wikimedia" sounds too
official and will keep this discussion going on.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
Wikimania is a special conference organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
???? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation. So ???? is
not Wikimania.

Proof (Reductio ad absurdum / ???)

1. Assume ???? is Wikimania
2. Then ???? is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation
3. But ???? is not organised by the Wikimedia Foundation

I must admit that maybe this logic argument only works in western
philosophy ;-)
Post by R.O.C
hope that this is helpful.
Thanks a lot! Your language and thinking is very intersting but not easy
to understand from the european point of view :-)

Greetings,
Jakob

P.S: Wikipedia is so great! You can write mails with Chinese just using
interwiki links :-)
Anthere
2006-03-17 11:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Hello ROC

Thanks for the detailed answer. I appreciate it.
Just a couple of points
Post by R.O.C
it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to
address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i
would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the
chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had
been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with
the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark
without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are
misunderstandings.
i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my
user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not
participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i
would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese
and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.
1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch
with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia
project page (
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since
few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a
english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of
course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)
thanks
Post by R.O.C
2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting
of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the
foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources,
neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is
not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in
english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an
administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it
until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until
yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the
chinese projects together with the foundation and the international
community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.
please, advertise this list as well as meta. Also, we have a nice team
of people working on all Wikimedia related topics, but most of this team
is from Europe/USA/Canada. Little by little we get more people from
South America as well. However, we still lack input from Africans and
from people from the East. If some of you participate here from time to
time, or on meta or come join irc #wikimedia channel, we should get to
know each other better.
Post by R.O.C
3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese
languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn
english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes
it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable
efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in
chinese.
Well, your english appears quite good to me :-) at least, I understand
it... better than some americans :-)
Post by R.O.C
4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects
mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining
small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant
messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to
meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion
of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently
addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international
conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these
separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a
local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need
for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of
wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all
difficulties.
5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after
discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
there were several considerations.
5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the
international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number
for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost
to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are
likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the
chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if
there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK
would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.
Which suggest me that it could be a good idea to find some sponsors to
help support costs for some chinese to come at Boston Wikimania.
Post by R.O.C
5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese
(probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service
might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese
conference will probably target largely on local or chinese
firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the
chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring
fund/resources.
5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so
that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned
from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually
expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.
5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese
conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it
convenient for both attendees and volunteers.
6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little
loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going
on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have
used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior
consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the
wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.
6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be
better organization and managements with regards to accountability.
6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese
organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists
for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I
have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture
gaps between the two parts of our community.
6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "??????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").
I rather think the "chinese language wikimedia conference" would be
best. It allows to have several meeting in the same year :-) and it
involves editors from all projects, not wikipedia only.
Post by R.O.C
6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).
As far as I am concerned, the use of wikimedia name is okay.
Post by R.O.C
6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.
hope that this is helpful.
Yes.
Very helpful.

Thanks ROC

Anthere
Post by R.O.C
roc (User:R.O.C)
Ray Saintonge
2006-03-17 00:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthere
At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more
and more frequent as time.
Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German
editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several
meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as well
(in french)...
Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well.
Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem.
Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking.
In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste,
myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are
Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in
english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities
where many people do not speak english at all.
French people generally are *bad* in english.
English people are even worse in French
Post by Anthere
I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more
often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian
and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do the
same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-)
World and national (or regional) meetings serve completely different
purposes. It's perfectly understandable that very few people from China
appeared at the Frankfurt Wikimania. By having these national meetings
soon after Wikimania it gives those who attended Wikimania an
opportunity to share their experiences with their colleagues that
couldn't make the trip to the other side of the world.

On another topic, I have been trying to encourage a founding meeting of
a Canadian chapter without much success. The big problem for a Canadian
chapter is geography and having a population that is spread across a
5,000 km ribbon. I have been thinking of a one day meeting in Montreal
right after the Boston meeting. This would make it possible for those of
us in the west to stop there on the way back from Boston, or even to car
pool between Montreal and Boston. If this can be arranged would it be
possible for you to come to Montreal for one day to attend?

Ec (Ray)
Anthere
2006-03-17 11:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Saintonge
On another topic, I have been trying to encourage a founding meeting of
a Canadian chapter without much success. The big problem for a Canadian
chapter is geography and having a population that is spread across a
5,000 km ribbon. I have been thinking of a one day meeting in Montreal
right after the Boston meeting. This would make it possible for those of
us in the west to stop there on the way back from Boston, or even to car
pool between Montreal and Boston. If this can be arranged would it be
possible for you to come to Montreal for one day to attend?
Ec (Ray)
As for myself, provided that I know about it soon enough, I might
arrange it.

ant
Delphine Ménard
2006-03-17 14:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthere
Post by Ray Saintonge
On another topic, I have been trying to encourage a founding meeting of
a Canadian chapter without much success. The big problem for a Canadian
chapter is geography and having a population that is spread across a
5,000 km ribbon. I have been thinking of a one day meeting in Montreal
right after the Boston meeting. This would make it possible for those of
us in the west to stop there on the way back from Boston, or even to car
pool between Montreal and Boston. If this can be arranged would it be
possible for you to come to Montreal for one day to attend?
Ec (Ray)
As for myself, provided that I know about it soon enough, I might
arrange it.
And I would definitely be there.

Delphine

--
~notafish
Delphine Ménard
2006-03-17 14:22:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthere
Post by Ray Saintonge
On another topic, I have been trying to encourage a founding meeting of
a Canadian chapter without much success. The big problem for a Canadian
chapter is geography and having a population that is spread across a
5,000 km ribbon. I have been thinking of a one day meeting in Montreal
right after the Boston meeting. This would make it possible for those of
us in the west to stop there on the way back from Boston, or even to car
pool between Montreal and Boston. If this can be arranged would it be
possible for you to come to Montreal for one day to attend?
Ec (Ray)
As for myself, provided that I know about it soon enough, I might
arrange it.
And I would definitely be there.

Delphine

--
~notafish
Anthere
2006-03-17 11:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ray Saintonge
On another topic, I have been trying to encourage a founding meeting of
a Canadian chapter without much success. The big problem for a Canadian
chapter is geography and having a population that is spread across a
5,000 km ribbon. I have been thinking of a one day meeting in Montreal
right after the Boston meeting. This would make it possible for those of
us in the west to stop there on the way back from Boston, or even to car
pool between Montreal and Boston. If this can be arranged would it be
possible for you to come to Montreal for one day to attend?
Ec (Ray)
As for myself, provided that I know about it soon enough, I might
arrange it.

ant
R.O.C
2006-03-16 21:02:15 UTC
Permalink
it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to
address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i
would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the
chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had
been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with
the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark
without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are
misunderstandings.

i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my
user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not
participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i
would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese
and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.

1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch
with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia
project page (
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since
few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a
english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of
course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)

2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting
of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the
foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources,
neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is
not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in
english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an
administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it
until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until
yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the
chinese projects together with the foundation and the international
community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.

3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese
languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn
english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes
it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable
efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in
chinese.

4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects
mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining
small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant
messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to
meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion
of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently
addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international
conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these
separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a
local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need
for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of
wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all
difficulties.

5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after
discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
there were several considerations.

5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the
international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number
for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost
to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are
likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the
chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if
there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK
would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.

5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese
(probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service
might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese
conference will probably target largely on local or chinese
firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the
chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring
fund/resources.

5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so
that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned
from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually
expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.

5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese
conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it
convenient for both attendees and volunteers.

6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little
loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going
on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have
used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior
consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the
wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.

6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be
better organization and managements with regards to accountability.

6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese
organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists
for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I
have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture
gaps between the two parts of our community.

6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for
the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the
chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using
names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese
conference is "??????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia
annual conference").

6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would
like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation
regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese
projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).

6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had
been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to
be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that
wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia
conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name
of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.

hope that this is helpful.

roc (User:R.O.C)
--

? 2006/3/16?Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> ???
Post by Anthere
Post by KJ
????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????2006???????????????????????????????--???????--???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Post by Anthere
Post by KJ
???????????????????????????????????
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83
Post by Anthere
Post by KJ
??????????????????????????????????????????????????
PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the reasons
why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.
--
KaurJmeb(KJ)
KJ... Absolutely no one questions the fact chinese editors want a
conference :-) It is *good* that your community is now big enough and
united enough to do one.
Our only worries are that there might be a confusion of names between
conferences (this has been cleared up) and that three meetings are done
nearly at the same time.
At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more
and more frequent as time.
Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German
editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several
meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as well
(in french)...
Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well.
Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem.
Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking.
In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste,
myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are
Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in
english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities
where many people do not speak english at all. French people generally
are *bad* in english. Those of us who can speak english can help bridge
between communities.
I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more
often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian
and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do the
same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-)
ant
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Ray Saintonge
2006-03-17 00:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthere
At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more
and more frequent as time.
Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German
editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several
meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as well
(in french)...
Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well.
Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem.
Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking.
In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste,
myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are
Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in
english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities
where many people do not speak english at all.
French people generally are *bad* in english.
English people are even worse in French
Post by Anthere
I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more
often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian
and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do the
same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-)
World and national (or regional) meetings serve completely different
purposes. It's perfectly understandable that very few people from China
appeared at the Frankfurt Wikimania. By having these national meetings
soon after Wikimania it gives those who attended Wikimania an
opportunity to share their experiences with their colleagues that
couldn't make the trip to the other side of the world.

On another topic, I have been trying to encourage a founding meeting of
a Canadian chapter without much success. The big problem for a Canadian
chapter is geography and having a population that is spread across a
5,000 km ribbon. I have been thinking of a one day meeting in Montreal
right after the Boston meeting. This would make it possible for those of
us in the west to stop there on the way back from Boston, or even to car
pool between Montreal and Boston. If this can be arranged would it be
possible for you to come to Montreal for one day to attend?

Ec (Ray)
Delphine Ménard
2006-03-16 14:27:43 UTC
Permalink
On 3/16/06, KJ <kaurjmeb at gmail.com> wrote:
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83
Post by KJ
??????????????????????????????????????????????????
PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the reasons
why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.
--
KaurJmeb(KJ)
???????http://zh.wikipedia.org
KJ???????????http://www.wretch.cc/blog/kaurjmeb
???????~
Just for the record. I'm French, I live in Germany, and I write here
in English. So language problems are not exactly something I am a
stranger to.

I am sorry if my email came across wrongly. I *am* in favour of a
Wikimedia Conference in China, as well as the existence of a local
chapter if anyone wants to launch one. I just wish that we could do
this *together*.

And yes, I am *damn* aware of the problems Chinese people may
encounter entering the United States. I am just concerned that knowing
they have a conference three weeks later, they won't bug *us* (the
FOundation) enough to make things change and allow them to participate
*also* in Boston.

Cheers,

Delphine

--
~notafish
Anthere
2006-03-16 17:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by KJ
????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????2006???????????????????????????????--???????--???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????????
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83
??????????????????????????????????????????????????
PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the reasons
why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.
--
KaurJmeb(KJ)
KJ... Absolutely no one questions the fact chinese editors want a
conference :-) It is *good* that your community is now big enough and
united enough to do one.
Our only worries are that there might be a confusion of names between
conferences (this has been cleared up) and that three meetings are done
nearly at the same time.

At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more
and more frequent as time.
Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German
editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several
meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as well
(in french)...
Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well.

Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem.
Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking.
In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste,
myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are
Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in
english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities
where many people do not speak english at all. French people generally
are *bad* in english. Those of us who can speak english can help bridge
between communities.

I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more
often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian
and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do the
same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-)

ant
Patrick, Brad
2006-03-16 21:27:30 UTC
Permalink
R.O.C.:

Thank you for this excellent summary.

In answer to the one question you ask about "Wikimedia" - this is also a trademark of the Foundation. It is usually used in this sense to mean more than just Wikipedia, the encyclopedia project. Of course, one of the major advances of zh. Is the new Chinese Wikinews site, so it is entirely appropriate for the conference to give people interested in any wiki issues the opportunity to communicate about any project.

I am absolutely not the right person to make any decisions about the use of trademarks; my strict legal opinion is that the Foundation does own the marks and is within its rights to license their use. Personally, I can think of nothing better to help advance Wikiprojects in Chinese than allowing for the use of these marks to promote the sites. I leave it to those closest to the conference on the Chinese side and the Chapter Coordinator/Wikimania project leader and her associates to work out the details of this. The trademark committee knows it has my meager legal blessing in proceeding with a license for the August 2006 HK event at full speed.

I can't thank you enough for your eloquent and obviously heart-felt interest in bridging the gap between these two populations. You are to be congratulated.

-BradP

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of R.O.C
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:02 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are misunderstandings.

i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.

1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia project page (
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)

2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources, neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the chinese projects together with the foundation and the international community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.

3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in chinese.

4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all difficulties.

5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
there were several considerations.

5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.

5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese (probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese conference will probably target largely on local or chinese firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring fund/resources.

5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.

5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it convenient for both attendees and volunteers.

6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.

6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be better organization and managements with regards to accountability.

6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture gaps between the two parts of our community.

6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese conference is "?????S??????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia annual conference").

6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).

6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.

hope that this is helpful.

roc (User:R.O.C)
--

?? 2006/3/16??Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> ??????
Post by Anthere
?P???????????}?????????????????????f????
???????????N???????k?????????????????????W???????????????c?????S?????????????????????????????????????????????????????S???A???????????????c?????S?????????????????????????????????????????????N???r???????w???j???????????????????@???????????????K?????????????S???????????Q?A???h?????????????}??
???????????N???????r?g?x????2006???H?S?????w???????N?????@?????]???K?????????????S????????????--???e??????????--?????????H?S?????w?????????????????r?g???????H?S?????w?????????????????]?????????????S?????????]?????????????W???????????r?g???????????g???e?k???_???r?g?K???I?????M?????Q?????????_?????????S?????????x?????r?g?????x?????H?S?????w?????????????????????????????????H?S?????w???????S?????????????o?????c???S????????????????
???????????Y???????S???????????????????H?S?????w???????????????????????????????????????????????????S???????c?????H?S?????w???????I???????????????????e?k???????S????????
Post by Anthere
???????P?????????????S???????I?k?^???????h?????????????_???S??????????
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83
Post by Anthere
???A???????????????D?????H?S?????w???????????????c?????????????????????o?????S?????????????h???x?x??
PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the
reasons
Post by Anthere
why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.
--
KaurJmeb(KJ)
KJ... Absolutely no one questions the fact chinese editors want a
conference :-) It is *good* that your community is now big enough and
united enough to do one.
Our only worries are that there might be a confusion of names between
conferences (this has been cleared up) and that three meetings are
done nearly at the same time.
At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more
and more frequent as time.
Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German
editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several
meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as
well (in french)...
Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well.
Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem.
Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking.
In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste,
myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are
Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in
english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities
where many people do not speak english at all. French people generally
are *bad* in english. Those of us who can speak english can help
bridge between communities.
I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more
often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian
and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do
the same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-)
ant
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Confidentiality Disclaimer: This e-mail message and any attachments are private communication sent by a law firm, Fowler White Boggs Banker P.A., and may contain confidential, legally privileged information meant solely for the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, then delete the e-mail and any attachments from your system. Thank you.
Patrick, Brad
2006-03-16 21:31:03 UTC
Permalink
And it was good.

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sam Korn
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:30 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong
Kong"
Post by SJ
In the beginning there were Logos,
And the Logos were with Jimbo and the Logos were Jimbo?

--
Sam
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer under IRS Circular 230: Unless expressly stated otherwise in this transmission, nothing contained in this message is intended or written to be used, nor may it be relied upon or used, (1) by any taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer under the Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended and/or (2) by any person to support the promotion or marketing of or to recommend any Federal tax transaction(s) or matter(s) addressed in this message.

If you desire a formal opinion on a particular tax matter for the purpose of avoiding the imposition of any penalties, we will discuss the additional Treasury requirements that must be met and whether it is possible to meet those requirements under the circumstances, as well as the anticipated time and additional fees involved.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Confidentiality Disclaimer: This e-mail message and any attachments are private communication sent by a law firm, Fowler White Boggs Banker P.A., and may contain confidential, legally privileged information meant solely for the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, then delete the e-mail and any attachments from your system. Thank you.
effeietsanders-list
2006-03-16 22:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Wow, what a lot of emails :)

Firstly I want to wish the Chinese a lot of succes with organizing their
conference, and I think it is a very good idea indeed. I myself came with an
idea for a wikimedia conference, then under the working name wikimania
reloaded, but now under the proposed name Wikimedia Conferentie Nederland,
WCN in the Netherlands. The main idea was that it should not be a conpetetor
of "Boston", but it should complete it. It should be a conference where
people could discuss the lectures of wikimania with eachother, but where
some lectures were repeated and even some new lectures maybe. In my original
idea it was about 50% discussiongroups and 50% lectures for probably just
one day (instead of Boston's three days?).
Because I am not orginizing it totally by myself, it wouldn't be very odd if
there come some changes in that idea though. It will indeed be in Dutch (at
least for the most part), primarily to the members of the Vereniging. (But
others will probably be welcome as well). I am very glad we have support
from Kennisnet, that already said that they want to be our main sponsor, and
will even help to set ip up.
I certainly hope that most ducth will, when they can afford it, go to both
conferences. The nice thing of NL is that we are reletively small, so
travellingcosts are not that high in NL itself. To Boston however we are
already soon speaking about ?500 just for travel. Count then the nightings,
eating, conference-costs and (for students at least) you'll pay a fortune.
So it just will not be possible for a l?t of people to go anyway. I guess
it's the same for china, danmark, poland, afrika, all over the world almost.
So it seems very logical to me that people start as well, beside not instead
of, their own conference. I would, if payable, prefer by far the boston
conference, and I think a lot of other people do as well. I think that most
people will try very hard to go to both national as international
conference.
Well, probably a lot of words, and little meaning. Just think it is the
language that is the problem here ;) And people, don't be afraight. People
really DO want to go to wikimania. Also when there is a national conf. It's
just something totally different!

Effeietsanders

ps: see for a (still very) short story about WCN:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCN and http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCN (in
dutch). Feedback is very welcome, please give it at the talkpage in the
dutch wikimedia-WCN-page or give me a mail.
Post by Patrick, Brad
And it was good.
-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sam Korn
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:30 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong
Kong"
Post by SJ
In the beginning there were Logos,
And the Logos were with Jimbo and the Logos were Jimbo?
--
Sam
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effeietsanders-list
2006-03-16 22:51:40 UTC
Permalink
Wow, what a lot of emails :)

Firstly I want to wish the Chinese a lot of succes with organizing their
conference, and I think it is a very good idea indeed. I myself came with an
idea for a wikimedia conference, then under the working name wikimania
reloaded, but now under the proposed name Wikimedia Conferentie Nederland,
WCN in the Netherlands. The main idea was that it should not be a conpetetor
of "Boston", but it should complete it. It should be a conference where
people could discuss the lectures of wikimania with eachother, but where
some lectures were repeated and even some new lectures maybe. In my original
idea it was about 50% discussiongroups and 50% lectures for probably just
one day (instead of Boston's three days?).
Because I am not orginizing it totally by myself, it wouldn't be very odd if
there come some changes in that idea though. It will indeed be in Dutch (at
least for the most part), primarily to the members of the Vereniging. (But
others will probably be welcome as well). I am very glad we have support
from Kennisnet, that already said that they want to be our main sponsor, and
will even help to set ip up.
I certainly hope that most ducth will, when they can afford it, go to both
conferences. The nice thing of NL is that we are reletively small, so
travellingcosts are not that high in NL itself. To Boston however we are
already soon speaking about ?500 just for travel. Count then the nightings,
eating, conference-costs and (for students at least) you'll pay a fortune.
So it just will not be possible for a l?t of people to go anyway. I guess
it's the same for china, danmark, poland, afrika, all over the world almost.
So it seems very logical to me that people start as well, beside not instead
of, their own conference. I would, if payable, prefer by far the boston
conference, and I think a lot of other people do as well. I think that most
people will try very hard to go to both national as international
conference.
Well, probably a lot of words, and little meaning. Just think it is the
language that is the problem here ;) And people, don't be afraight. People
really DO want to go to wikimania. Also when there is a national conf. It's
just something totally different!

Effeietsanders

ps: see for a (still very) short story about WCN:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCN and http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/WCN (in
dutch). Feedback is very welcome, please give it at the talkpage in the
dutch wikimedia-WCN-page or give me a mail.
Post by Patrick, Brad
And it was good.
-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sam Korn
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:30 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong
Kong"
Post by SJ
In the beginning there were Logos,
And the Logos were with Jimbo and the Logos were Jimbo?
--
Sam
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l at wikimedia.org
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
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Internal Revenue Code of 1986, as amended and/or (2) by any person to
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If you desire a formal opinion on a particular tax matter for the purpose
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Erik Moeller
2006-03-16 05:10:00 UTC
Permalink
Just seen on Wikinews:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikimania_2006_to_be_held_in_Hong_Kong

Looks like a great effort. Is it official that there are now national
Wikimania conferences in addition to the international one?

Erik
Patrick, Brad
2006-03-16 05:12:44 UTC
Permalink
News to me. I am especially interested in the (as far as I know)
unlicensed use of WMF copyright material. Did someone ask and I missed
it?

And someone we know will probably have a fit re: design guidelines.

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Erik Moeller
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:10 AM
To: foundation-l at wikimedia.org
Subject: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

Just seen on Wikinews:

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Chinese_Wikimania_2006_to_be_held_in_Hong_Ko
ng

Looks like a great effort. Is it official that there are now national
Wikimania conferences in addition to the international one?

Erik
_______________________________________________
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foundation-l at wikimedia.org
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If you desire a formal opinion on a particular tax matter for the purpose of avoiding the imposition of any penalties, we will discuss the additional Treasury requirements that must be met and whether it is possible to meet those requirements under the circumstances, as well as the anticipated time and additional fees involved.
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W. Guy Finley
2006-03-16 13:39:35 UTC
Permalink
Personally I think you guys are overreacting a bit. When I sit down in a
few weeks and watch the College World Series, the Little League World Series
or the World Series of Poker for that matter I'm not suddenly surprised when
I don't see Major League Baseball teams there. Similarly they don't call it
"The Major League Baseball World Series", it's just the "World Series" and
everyone knows what THE World Series is just like I think people will know
what THE Wikimania is.

It pretty clearly is billed as "Chinese Wikimania" which to me implies, it's
well, er, Chinese -- not the world-wide Wikimania. Now, "Wikimania --
China 2006" might be confusing indicating that the world-wide Wikimania is
being held in China that year. I don't think "Chinese Wikimania" has that
effect nor would "Danish Wikimania" or "American Wikimania", etc.

Finally, as someone who has had my fill mediating China-related disputes on
EN if the greater China editors managed to get together and agree on meeting
in Hong Kong I think they could call it the World Series of Wikimania for
all I care because I think that act of getting all those different groups
together is far more important than whatever they call it.

--Guy (EN User: Wgfinley)
Post by Anthere
Post by Angela
I'm pleased to see a conference in China is being planned, but this
and similar events really need to use a different name, both to
prevent confusion with the actual Wikimania, and to avoid the need for
each event to get permission from Wikimedia to use the name.
Angela.
I agree. We are approaching people, sponsors and so, with the idea that
Wikimania is an ANNUAL INTERNATIONAL conference of our projects. And in
some texts, it also says it is organised by the Wikimedia Foundation.
It will be very confusing if many wikimanias are being organised per
year, some with 400 participants from many countries, others with 100
participants at a national level or why not even some wikimeet with 20
people. This will mean a wikimania is an meetup for some wiki users. No
more.
ant
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KJ
2006-03-16 14:18:44 UTC
Permalink
????????????????????

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????2006???????????????????????????????--???????--???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83

??????????????????????????????????????????????????

PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the reasons
why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.


--
KaurJmeb(KJ)
???????http://zh.wikipedia.org
KJ???????????http://www.wretch.cc/blog/kaurjmeb
???????~
Patrick, Brad
2006-03-16 21:27:30 UTC
Permalink
R.O.C.:

Thank you for this excellent summary.

In answer to the one question you ask about "Wikimedia" - this is also a trademark of the Foundation. It is usually used in this sense to mean more than just Wikipedia, the encyclopedia project. Of course, one of the major advances of zh. Is the new Chinese Wikinews site, so it is entirely appropriate for the conference to give people interested in any wiki issues the opportunity to communicate about any project.

I am absolutely not the right person to make any decisions about the use of trademarks; my strict legal opinion is that the Foundation does own the marks and is within its rights to license their use. Personally, I can think of nothing better to help advance Wikiprojects in Chinese than allowing for the use of these marks to promote the sites. I leave it to those closest to the conference on the Chinese side and the Chapter Coordinator/Wikimania project leader and her associates to work out the details of this. The trademark committee knows it has my meager legal blessing in proceeding with a license for the August 2006 HK event at full speed.

I can't thank you enough for your eloquent and obviously heart-felt interest in bridging the gap between these two populations. You are to be congratulated.

-BradP

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of R.O.C
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:02 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong Kong"

it was a mess, a huge mess, but gladly we are now working together to address it and fix it. if i were a director or officer of the foundation, i would not feel good if i suddenly learned from the newspaper that the chinese or any other local community on the very projects of foundation had been planning something formal without sharing ideas and information with the foundation and moreover some people had used a foundation trademark without prior agreement! there were miscommunications and there are misunderstandings.

i'm a chinese wikipedian who would like to keep anonymity at the moment (my user page is at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:R.O.C), and i have not participated much in the organization of this chinese conference. but i would like to help sorting the matter out since i understand both chinese and english. here is some information that i would like to provide.

1) it is now realized that the chinese organizers were not keeping in touch with the foundation, but they have been reporting everything on a wikipedia project page (
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83)
in chinese. the working language for the organizers has to be chinese since few of them can use english efficiently and effectively. i will work on a english translation page on meta as informational briefs this saturday. (of course any help with setting it up sooner would be greatly appreciated.)

2) the chinese organizers and the community at large have since the starting of the projects been cohering strongly with the ideas/goals/policies of the foundation -- because we share these same values: free and open sources, neutrality and mutual respect among many others. this is true even if it is not conveyed to the foundation since we have not expressed it much in english. indeed, very few people know about this mailing list -- as an administrator and keen user on zh.wikipedia i did not even know about it until ~3 months ago (how shameful) and have not really utilize it until yesterday. i can tell that the chinese community wants to develop the chinese projects together with the foundation and the international community at large, and this intention/dedication has never changed.

3) frankly, i believe that the difference between english and chinese languages are larger than that between any two western european languages.
even though many chinese in modern mainland china and taiwan start to learn english before primary schools, the lack of live language environment makes it difficult for most of them to communicate in english with an acceptable efficiency. just imagine if asking a native english speaker write in chinese.

4) (partly from KJ's message) contributors to the chinese wikimedia projects mostly reside in mainland china, taiwan, and hong kong, and the remaining small portion locates mostly in north america, europe, and southeast asia.
the zh.wikipedia editors and administrators communicate mainly by instant messagers online besides the wikimedia pages. many of them would like to meet and discuss in person about problems, development, and public promotion of wikimedia projects in chinese. many of the issues cannot be efficiently addressed in an online meeting, a local meeting, or an international conference. there are borders and the travel is not easy between these separate judicial regions, so it would not be as easy or little work as a local meet-up or a country meet-up. but the chinese community feels the need for such a conference and believes in its benefits for better development of wikimedia projects in future, so they would like to pursue it despite of all difficulties.

5) (partly from KJ's message) the chinese community decided by vote after discussion to hold the conference 3 weeks after the international meeting.
there were several considerations.

5.1) due to limited economical abilities and some visa issues, few (if not
zero) contributors in mainland china will be able to attend the international conference. the traveling cost to boston is not a small number for most contributors in taiwan or hong kong, either; but the traveling cost to/in HK would be affordable. those users who can make it for wikimania are likely to be able to travel to HK, but most users who will attend the chinese conference would not have the ability to attend wikimania even if there was no conference in HK. basically, holding a chinese conference in HK would not distract attendees to wikimania in boston.

5.2) the working language on the chinese conference will be chinese (probably mandarin) due to practical reasons. english interpreting service might be offered if there is such a need and the ability. the chinese conference will probably target largely on local or chinese firms/organizations for sponsorship/support. so i do not feel that the chinese conference will divert speakers or much of sponsoring fund/resources.

5.3) the chinese community decided to hold the conference after wikimania so that the few attendees of both conferences can report what they have learned from wikimania to the chinese community. i think that it will actually expand the mission and influence of wikimedia and wikimania.

5.4) many chinese contributors are college students, so holding the chinese conference in august when they are still in summer vacation will make it convenient for both attendees and volunteers.

6) I agree that the organization of the chinese conference has been a little loose. i also agree that we should keep each other informed of what is going on in a timely and efficient manner. some chinese users as individuals have used the foundation's intellectual properties without obtaining prior consent, eg, the "wikimania" in the provisional english name and the wikipedia logo in the hong kong bidding poster.

6.1) i have talked to some chinese organizers and learned that there will be better organization and managements with regards to accountability.

6.2) a meta page about the chinese conference will be set up (before this
saturday) for information and english media releases. chief chinese organizers will also use the foundation-l or other appropriate mailing lists for communications of ideas with the foundation and other communities. I have agreed to help identify and bridge any language difficulties / culture gaps between the two parts of our community.

6.3) i hope that the community can help choosing an english translation for the chinese name of conference, in accordance with foundation policies. the chinese community/conference would like to seek the authorization for using names/trademarks of the foundation, if needed. the name of the chinese conference is "?????S??????" (literally, "chinese language wikipedia/wikimedia annual conference").

6.3.1) i personally prefer the name "chinese wikimedia conference" and would like to know the procedures for seeking permissions from the foundation regarding the use of "wikimedia". there is no local chapters serving chinese projects at the moment (may not be any time soon either).

6.4) as explained earlier, the english (or western) word of "wikimania" had been interpreted and understood in chinese differently as it is supposed to be. the organizers and chinese users have been informed at zh.wikipedia that wikimania does not mean "wikimedia conference", but "international wikimedia conference" (sponsored by wikimedia foundation); it is also a trading name of wikimedia foundation instead of a generic term.

hope that this is helpful.

roc (User:R.O.C)
--

?? 2006/3/16??Anthere <Anthere9 at yahoo.com> ??????
Post by Anthere
?P???????????}?????????????????????f????
???????????N???????k?????????????????????W???????????????c?????S?????????????????????????????????????????????????????S???A???????????????c?????S?????????????????????????????????????????????N???r???????w???j???????????????????@???????????????K?????????????S???????????Q?A???h?????????????}??
???????????N???????r?g?x????2006???H?S?????w???????N?????@?????]???K?????????????S????????????--???e??????????--?????????H?S?????w?????????????????r?g???????H?S?????w?????????????????]?????????????S?????????]?????????????W???????????r?g???????????g???e?k???_???r?g?K???I?????M?????Q?????????_?????????S?????????x?????r?g?????x?????H?S?????w?????????????????????????????????H?S?????w???????S?????????????o?????c???S????????????????
???????????Y???????S???????????????????H?S?????w???????????????????????????????????????????????????S???????c?????H?S?????w???????I???????????????????e?k???????S????????
Post by Anthere
???????P?????????????S???????I?k?^???????h?????????????_???S??????????
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:2006%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%B6%AD%E5%9F%BA%E5%B9%B4%E6%9C%83
Post by Anthere
???A???????????????D?????H?S?????w???????????????c?????????????????????o?????S?????????????h???x?x??
PS:If you cann't read this latter very well.....that is one of the
reasons
Post by Anthere
why Chinese Wikipedians need a Chinese Wikipedian's Conference.
--
KaurJmeb(KJ)
KJ... Absolutely no one questions the fact chinese editors want a
conference :-) It is *good* that your community is now big enough and
united enough to do one.
Our only worries are that there might be a confusion of names between
conferences (this has been cleared up) and that three meetings are
done nearly at the same time.
At least in Europe, meetings are frequent, and I am sure will be more
and more frequent as time.
Most of these meetings are restricted to one language only. German
editors had several meetings (in german). Dutch editors had several
meetings (in dutch/english). French editors had several meetings as
well (in french)...
Of course, chinese editors *should* have meetings as well.
Also, you must absolutely believe we understand the language problem.
Many of those posting on this list are not primarily english speaking.
In the recent posters, Delphine, Yann, Jean-Christophe, Jean-Baptiste,
myself are French. Erik, Mathias are Germans. Gerard and Walter are
Dutch. Aphaia is Japanese. Shizao is Chinese. Some of us are good in
english. Others are not very good. And we all belong to communities
where many people do not speak english at all. French people generally
are *bad* in english. Those of us who can speak english can help
bridge between communities.
I hope you (and other chinese who speak english) will post here more
often. We need you and your input. Last year in Frankfurt, Theodorian
and others came and told us about the chinese community. You may do
the same. And I'll tell you about the french ;-)
ant
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Patrick, Brad
2006-03-16 21:31:03 UTC
Permalink
And it was good.

-----Original Message-----
From: foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org
[mailto:foundation-l-bounces at wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Sam Korn
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:30 PM
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] "Chinese Wikimania 2006 to be held in Hong
Kong"
Post by SJ
In the beginning there were Logos,
And the Logos were with Jimbo and the Logos were Jimbo?

--
Sam
_______________________________________________
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foundation-l at wikimedia.org
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